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Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:17 pm

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Ben
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:42 pm

Hi Craig

I think its a mistake to separate the Buddha's teachings from post-mortem rebirth. In fact, I don't believe you can separate the two without distorting the Buddha's teachings to one's own predelictions and delusions. No personal criticism intended. If you survey the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma you will see that the doctrine of rebirth not only appears everywhere you look, but key aspects of the teachings don't make much sense without rebirth.

If, Craig, you find the concept of rebirth hard to accept, then for the time being lay it to the side and continue with your practice. Denying the reality of rebirth without having developed your own experiential wisdom may become an obstruction for further development on the path. For the time being, consider trying to keep your mind open with relation to some aspects of the teaching that are challenging for you.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Ordinaryperson
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ordinaryperson » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:20 am

I think the best thing to do is to try to understand Realms of Existence and to investigate them a bit more as such teaching is not there simply to force us into submission using scare tactic. They are explained by Buddha for a good reason. i.e. some of us might end up there one day if we simply thread the wrong path.

So if one does not consider the Realms of Existence as real then what about sentient beings?

:anjali:

p/s: I am pleased to see Bhikkhu Pesala posting again as I think he was excluded from another forum.

Actively trying to destroy the Three Unwholesome Roots of Greed, Hatred and Ignorance
Greed is the greatest danger of them all

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Ben
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ben » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:51 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby pink_trike » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:35 am

This is a time of dissolution when all our hungrily cherished institutionalized towers of babel (babble) are crumbling away (whether we acknowledge it or not). The modern world is peaking in babble-time as the foundations of our most revered stories are revealing themselves as false.

Look at xtianity with millions of fervent believers, churches numbering in the hundreds of thousands, millions of serious theological books, billions of lines of biblical commentary, endless biblical debate - that have all been all based on the false assumption that Jesus was an actual person, and that there is somewhere a literal heaven and hell within which we will be literally reborn based on our actions - all crumbling away in light of modern scholarly research and the growing awareness that "Jesus" was an allegorical figure that symbolized the Sun - part of an ancient imaginative framework used to tell a ancient astronomy story about the cyclical movements of "The Heavens" and the real, verifiable effects that these movements have on the planet and it's inhabitants. Practical stories that have been spun into amnesia-spawned nonsensical babble - the original wisdom message (science and a medicinal way of life, not theology) buried and hidden - replaced by literalism and a fear-based moral code, with the symbolic references either no longer recognized or wrongly interpreted in ways that reify the delusion.

Buddhist symbology and the Buddhist Suttas are chock-a-block full of references to this same exact story and include myriad symbolic references that match those found in the wisdom stories of nearly all premodern societies that all were telling the same story as the one that was encoded into a popular story about a wise man (who varied from culture to culture), born of a virgin birth, lived as a prince, who let go of the old way, and offered humankind a new way - a survival guide for life in an ever-changing world - specifically referencing the gap time of chaos that arises between eras. It is interesting to note that the approximatized date of the "Buddha's birth" coincides with an important, significant milestone in the movements of the Sun and solar system through the approx. 26,000 year wheel of time - that was known and witnessed by nearly all premodern advanced cultures (and verified by modern astronomy). Wheel, lion, pillar, broken axil, fig tree, etc... just a few among many symbols that play important roles in this ancient widespread body of astronomical knowledge. Also, it isn't just coincidence that the system of symbolic numbers found in Buddhism far predate the institution of Buddhism itself in premodern teachings from around the globe - related to astronomy. Did "The Buddha" exist? Or was he yet another allegorical representation of "The Light of the World" (budh), coinciding with the Sun moving into the current astronomical era? Imo, he (perhaps) only existed as Siddhārtha Gautama, who was aware of the astronomical wisdom of his time (having had the benefit of education afforded to the wealthy) and who taught humanity through psychology, parable, and allegory how to live on a volatile, ever-changing planet with a mind prone to building towers of babble and then believing them to the detriment of all living beings.

The intelligent medicinal practices found within Buddhism can be verified in this life, not just within our own experience - but also when we extend our understanding of them as being one part of a terrestrial survival guide for all living beings - part science, part practical application. Everything else (especially literal interpretations of post mortem literal rebirth) is best viewed with one eyebrow mindfully raised, ideally within a broad global context that includes related wisdom teachings that predate the institution of Buddhism. It's a time to look outside the box, and we have the tools to do it - or we can cling to the tower. I see this as consistent with the Dharma (which the institution of Buddhism set out to contain).
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Ben
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ben » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:37 am

Hi Pink

There is no clinging going on. I am merely suggesting that one puts to the side for the time being any part of the doctrine that is unacceptable and to keep one's mind open. It is one's own wisdom, developed through the practice of samatha and vipassana and through the development of one's paramitas, that will answer questions regarding the reality of rebirth, kamma or some other aspect/s of the teaching that one may dismiss as smbolism or cultural accretion. This is what I think the Buddha extolled his disciples when he said Ehi passiko! (see for yourself!)
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby pink_trike » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:45 am

Yes, I completely agree (up to a point). ;)
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Will
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Re: be heedful

Postby Will » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:19 am

If the jhanas are experiences of the deva realms and the jhanas are states of the human mind, why would it not also be true that profound "meditations" on hatred or desire or corruption etc. would let a human mind know the hells?

In short, what is the difference, if any, between the hell (or heaven) experienced from the human environment now and the post-mortem hell (or heaven) experience?
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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clw_uk
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:41 am

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BlackBird
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby BlackBird » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:36 am

Thank you for reiterating the reality of life, Venerable Pesala, how easy it is to fall from the path, and the consequences it has.

I think Pink, Clw_UK: We need to remember that the are taught as being real places of rebirth by the Buddha.

If one has seen the Dhamma, on even a very superficial level in every day life, and realised: "This here, the Buddha taught this." Then one gains conviction that indeed the Buddha must be omniscient. If one believes the Buddha to be enlightened, then one can deduce that the Hell realms are infact real places that sentient beings are reborn.

Hope you all had a day which was filled with good practise, and little suffering.

With metta
Jack :heart:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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cooran
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby cooran » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:58 am

Hello all,

How wonderful to think that this life is all there is! :woohoo: When things get too much, or life is too painful, or boring - just ... take pills, drive off a cliff, use a handgun, hang yourself, step out in front of a car ... and it's all over, the light goes out. What an easy solution. Except ... that's not what the Buddha taught.

Dhamma Without Rebirth?
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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clw_uk
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:08 am

Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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clw_uk
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:11 am

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Jechbi
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Jechbi » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:41 pm


thornbush
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby thornbush » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:52 pm

Well, the 'Hell' of Buddhism is not a forever thingy, nor a conception of some "Old Man in the Sky' 's 'sadistic pastime'.
Even so, a 'temporal' stay in 'it', even for one moment, may seem like forever....so it's not a preferred destination...by all means... :thinking:

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kc2dpt
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:18 pm

- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:21 pm

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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby pink_trike » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:15 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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clw_uk
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:20 pm

Its also important to remember that the view "there is no rebirth" is just as speculative as "there is rebirth"


The Buddhas own noble teaching transcends both with the removal of "I am" since its that which gives rise to both (and all the other speculative views)


Metta
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby pink_trike » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:21 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.


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