"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by mikenz66 »

Jhana4 wrote: I disagree. A problem will not get fixed unless people are made aware of the problem and communicate about it.

As with many things in life, hearing about a problem will make people feel uncomfortable.
That's a rather irrelevant strawman.

The point several of us have made is that there's nothing remotely surprising in that book for anyone who has spent any time with real-life Buddhists. And the solutions offered don't sound particularly interesting. I know people have different inclinations, so if you find this book helpful, that's fine. But in my experience are many monks, nuns, and lay people in Asia and elsewhere that are simply getting on with living and teaching the Dhamma properly, which I think has much more impact.

:anjali:
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Viscid »

Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.

Westerners have not been exposed to a lot of the dirt in the Theravadin sangha, and because of this Dhammika does not have to present a "fair and balanced" evaluation of it. This book is allowing naive Westerners who do not have much first-hand experience dealing with the sangha to have that balanced view. If Dhammika forced himself to write about the positive qualities of the Theravadin Sangha just to seem balanced, it would have dulled the point of this earnest expression of genuine concern.
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
Very smelly bovine coproforms. It is a badly done book, badly reasoned, and poorly balanced.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by tiltbillings »

Jhana4 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote: His intentions might have been different, but he wrote in his book that his intentions where to inspire positive change by making people aware of a side of Buddhism that they weren't aware of. I think his written statement of his intentions published in his book takes priority as far as trying to decide what his intentions in writing the book were.
I don't give a rat's tookus what his intentions were or were not. It is simply an unskilful and somewhat destructive effort.
I disagree. A problem will not get fixed unless people are made aware of the problem and communicate about it.
The book stinks, in that it poorly reasoned. I have no problem with talking about the many and serious problems found in Theravadin countries. Having spent a brief time in Thailand in robes, I saw plenty of it. There is nothing surprising in what he says about all that. The problem is, as I pointed out above (taking random references in that stupid book to the Mahayana), that his thesis is very poorly reasoned and has no balance.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:
Viscid wrote:Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
Very smelly bovine coproforms. It is a badly done book, badly reasoned, and poorly balanced.
Regardless of its poor reasoning and balance, it was due. Even if to incite this discussion, to make people question their imagined stainless image of the Theravada, it was due. It is a book which seems to have incited some controvercy, and is worth respecting in that regard. If the accusations and concerns expressed were either baseless or already well-documented, this book wouldn't have made a blip. But it seems to have!
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Viscid wrote:Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
Very smelly bovine coproforms. It is a badly done book, badly reasoned, and poorly balanced.
Regardless of its poor reasoning and balance, it was due. Even if to incite this discussion, to make people question their imagined stainless image of the Theravada, it was due. It is a book which seems to have incited some controvercy, and is worth respecting in that regard. If the accusations and concerns expressed were either baseless or already well-documented, this book wouldn't have made a blip. But it seems to have!
The book is unskilfull and has seriously damaged people's confidence in the Theravada.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:The book is unskilfull and has seriously damaged people's confidence in the Theravada.
Does that translate into losing faith in the Dhamma?

Despite its problems, Theravada is still an excellent vehicle for practicing the dhamma. The vehicle may have uncomfortable seats, but it can travel from point A to point B relatively well. If this makes people look into alternatives, then good. If their desire to know and apply the teachings is genuine, they'll soon figure out in their search that the alternatives also have their inherent issues.
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by mikenz66 »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Viscid wrote:Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
Very smelly bovine coproforms. It is a badly done book, badly reasoned, and poorly balanced.
Regardless of its poor reasoning and balance, it was due. Even if to incite this discussion, to make people question their imagined stainless image of the Theravada, it was due.
My point is that it says nothing surprising, not that I disagree that there are clearly, and unsurprisingly, many problems (most of which seem to have been around since the time of the Buddha, judging from the Vinaya and subsequent history).

You seem to be saying that it's intended for naive people with no contact with the real world.
Viscid wrote: It is a book which seems to have incited some controvercy, and is worth respecting in that regard. If the accusations and concerns expressed were either baseless or already well-documented, this book wouldn't have made a blip. But it seems to have!
Where do you see it making a blip?

It's certainly a serious problem that some approach Buddhism with the idea that everyone and everything about Buddhist organisations is perfect. I've seen this lead to dramatic losses of faith (in people I know off-line and in some here). As Tilt alludes to.

The converse problem I see is obsessing about problems (real or imagined) to the extent of avoiding real-life Sangha because they are "not perfect", and the idea that westerners are practising so much better than anyone in these corrupt Asian institutions.

:anjali:
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Viscid »

mikenz66 wrote: You seem to be saying that it's intended for naive people with no contact with the real world.
That likely wasn't Dhammika's intent at all, but his book may be valuable as an account of the problems in Theravada for those who live in countries without much direct access to the Sangha.
mikenz66 wrote:Where do you see it making a blip?
I don't, really. I shouldn't have written that.
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by ancientbuddhism »

manasikara wrote:After I read 'The Broken Buddha' my relationship with the Theravada as an institution / religious organization was changed. My formerly rose-coloured glasses were well and truly broken. I found myself unable to attend Theravadan religious gatherings for quite a while, but I did not ever consider giving up meditation practice or accepting guidance from the pali canon. So it actually strengthened my conviction in the Teachings by making me see that they (Buddha's Teachings) are far greater than any one sect that might claim to best embody them (and does not every sect claim this?).

I have met Ven. Dhammika a few times when he visited Melbourne. I don't think he wrote TBB out of bitterness, he is just what is termed a 'whistleblower' and every organization needs one, even Theravada Buddhism (the institution).
Are you really that easily influenced by information at face value? When I read Dhammika’s rant I chuckled through parts of it because I have also seen such and more in the wats, temples and vihāras I have lived in. What is truly distasteful to me is not what the content is pointing to but that a bhikkhu has stooped to such scandal.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The book is unskilfull and has seriously damaged people's confidence in the Theravada.
Does that translate into losing faith in the Dhamma?
Given its lack of balance, it certainly can.
Despite its problems, Theravada is still an excellent vehicle for practicing the dhamma. The vehicle may have uncomfortable seats, but it can travel from point A to point B relatively well. If this makes people look into alternatives, then good. If their desire to know and apply the teachings is genuine, they'll soon figure out in their search that the alternatives also have their inherent issues.
The Theravada is not served well by this seriously flawed book.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by ancientbuddhism »

It is sad to read such importance given to this tabloid. It has been already said in this thread that this happens elsewhere in religion too. So I will only add that religion can be like a glass house, throw enough stones and you may well break something you like.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:The Theravada is not served well by this seriously flawed book.
Sigh. You're probably right.
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Jhana4 »

Viscid wrote:Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.

Westerners have not been exposed to a lot of the dirt in the Theravadin sangha, and because of this Dhammika does not have to present a "fair and balanced" evaluation of it. This book is allowing naive Westerners who do not have much first-hand experience dealing with the sangha to have that balanced view. If Dhammika forced himself to write about the positive qualities of the Theravadin Sangha just to seem balanced, it would have dulled the point of this earnest expression of genuine concern.
Exactly.

:goodpost:
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by tiltbillings »

Jhana4 wrote:
Viscid wrote:Love this book.

It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.

Westerners have not been exposed to a lot of the dirt in the Theravadin sangha, and because of this Dhammika does not have to present a "fair and balanced" evaluation of it. This book is allowing naive Westerners who do not have much first-hand experience dealing with the sangha to have that balanced view. If Dhammika forced himself to write about the positive qualities of the Theravadin Sangha just to seem balanced, it would have dulled the point of this earnest expression of genuine concern.
Exactly.

:goodpost:
Apparently not:


http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 94#p153809" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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