Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cooran
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

How wonderful to think that this life is all there is! :woohoo: When things get too much, or life is too painful, or boring - just ... take pills, drive off a cliff, use a handgun, hang yourself, step out in front of a car ... and it's all over, the light goes out. What an easy solution. Except ... that's not what the Buddha taught.

Dhamma Without Rebirth?
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Chris wrote:Hello all,

How wonderful to think that this life is all there is! :woohoo: When things get too much, or life is too painful, or boring - just ... take pills, drive off a cliff, use a handgun, hang yourself, step out in front of a car ... and it's all over, the light goes out. What an easy solution. Except ... that's not what the Buddha taught.

Dhamma Without Rebirth?
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris

This is another speculative view "if there is no rebirth, I wont exsist"

The Buddha clearly showed how all specualtive views come to be, through clinging to the khandas as self

No clinging, no speculative view

Furthermore the Buddha didnt state that life was suffering, if he did then suicide might be a good option, what he said is there is suffering which comes to be because of clinging to things and so having a sense of "I" or"me"

Also when people say "is this life all there is" its usual in dismay and with the hope of another life, i.e. craving for exsistence coming from self view

Lets not forget the Buddhas own noble teachings of the Four Noble Truths, teachings that have no reference to rebirth at all, unless people sneak it in

The Buddha himself didnt set out for his search for the deathless with the view of "i will be reborn and suffer". It was with correct wisdom based on observation that there is dukkha, there is ageing and death. He even states that is good for Bhikkhus to have gone forth with the understanding of "I am a victim of ageing and death" etc, as in right now, the observation of it right here, he doesnt say

it is good you have gone forth with the view "i will be reborn, age and suffer" its "I am a victim of birth, ageing and dukkha"

Not I will be a victim, I am a victim

The Buddhas teachings then show us the way out of this dukkha, through non-identification since identification brings about birth ageing and death via identifying with those things that will age and die, so for example if there is identication with the body, when that ages and die there will be the ignorant thought/perception "I am ageing and dying" and so there will be distress/dukkha

No identification, no birth or death since there is no "I am" to identify with age and death and so no dukkha


Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

BlackBird wrote:Thank you for reiterating the reality of life, Venerable Pesala, how easy it is to fall from the path, and the consequences it has.

I think Pink, Clw_UK: We need to remember that the 31 planes of existence are taught as being real places of rebirth by the Buddha.

If one has seen the Dhamma, on even a very superficial level in every day life, and realised: "This here, the Buddha taught this." Then one gains conviction that indeed the Buddha must be omniscient. If one believes the Buddha to be enlightened, then one can deduce that the Hell realms are infact real places that sentient beings are reborn.

Hope you all had a day which was filled with good practise, and little suffering.

With metta
Jack :heart:

This is all dependent on a particular interpretation of rebirth

Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Jechbi
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Craig,

I respect the notion that you're bringing to the table, namely, that practice is relevant in this present moment and only occurs here. At least that's what I hear you saying.

I'm not following, though, why you think there's a whole lot to talk about with regard to rebirth. Seems to me that our present attitude toward rebirth is going to be conditioned by past and present kamma, nothing more. So we might not have complete control of whatever attitude about rebirth bubbles up to the surface. In that respect, arguing back and forth about the importance of having a certain attitude about rebirth seems like it might be counterproductive. I like Ben's approach: Recognize one's understanding of rebirth for what it is, then set it aside and keep on practicing.
clw_uk wrote:Could you elaborate on how taking away post-mortem rebirth distorts the teachings?
Not to answer for Ben (because I'm sure he'll have a better answer), but the teachings are chock full of references to post-mortem rebirth, so if you take post-mortem rebirth out, that process involves seeing the teachings through the lens of your predilections. Okay, we're all going to be guilty of putting our own spin on the teachings to some extent. But the problem lies in trying to say that a particular spin that excludes post-mortem rebirth is not a substantial distortion of the teachings. Because it is.
clw_uk wrote:The Buddhas own noble teachings were, (in short), that there is Dukkha through having this sense of "I am". When there is "I am" there is ageing and death since there is identification with that which ages and dies and so the thought "I am ageing and dying". Remove all thoughts and perceptions about self and there is no more identification and so no more ageing, sickness or death ( and no more speculative views about what happneds after death)
I don't think this paragraph adequately encapsulates the Buddha's teachings in short. It's not true that if you remove all thoughts and perceptions about self, then there will be no more identification, no more aging, sickness or death. The action of "removing thoughts and perceptions about self" does not have the result of "nibbana." It's more complicated than that. The conditions for the kamma that bring a perfect understanding of anatta are complex. They are summarized in the 4th Noble Truth. It's not just a matter of removing certain thoughts and perceptions.
clw_uk wrote:Its interesting to note that when the Buddha himself set out to find the deathless, he didnt do it with the view "i will be rebortn and suffer" since, if you interpret it as rebirth, he only seen rebirth on the actual night of his enlightenment. Before that he set out with the view "I am a victim of ageing, sickness and death".
I don't think you can know the mind of the Bodhisatta Gotama on the night of his renunciation. But we do know that later, the clear teaching is that: "Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering ..." (from here). If the Buddha mainly is trying to make the point that we practice in this present moment solely to end suffering here and now for ourselves alone, then why would he bother saying that birth is suffering?

Craig, personally I think it's great that you open up these topics for discussion. It's good kamma to discuss the Dhamma, in my opinion. But I think we all have to recognize that we bring our own preferences and rose-tinted glasses to the table. Sometimes discussions like this seem to be more about how relatively tinted or untinted our lenses actually are. Well, that kind of discussion is going to tend to feed self view rather than overcome it.

This thread is about heedfulness and the reality of the experience of hell realms. It appears nobody disagrees that the experience of hell realms is a real possibility. And nobody is going to persuade anyone to change his or her cosmological opinions about what occurs after physical death. So maybe the answer is to acknowledge that we all have our own distorted way of looking at things, we all need practice, and that's just the way it is.

:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
thornbush
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by thornbush »

Well, the 'Hell' of Buddhism is not a forever thingy, nor a conception of some "Old Man in the Sky' 's 'sadistic pastime'.
Even so, a 'temporal' stay in 'it', even for one moment, may seem like forever....so it's not a preferred destination...by all means... :thinking:
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kc2dpt
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by kc2dpt »

Ben wrote:There is no clinging going on.
I don't know about you, Ben, but I see a lot of clinging in this thread - people clinging to their dislike of rebirth teachings. ;) You say "let it be" but they can't. They must fight and scratch and spit and do whatever they can to push away these teachings of the Buddha. Aversion is just another form of clinging and we can't just wish it away. Aversion, like clinging, is only eradicated through practice. :meditate:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Peter wrote:
Ben wrote:There is no clinging going on.
I don't know about you, Ben, but I see a lot of clinging in this thread - people clinging to their dislike of rebirth teachings. ;) You say "let it be" but they can't. They must fight and scratch and spit and do whatever they can to push away these teachings of the Buddha. Aversion is just another form of clinging and we can't just wish it away. Aversion, like clinging, is only eradicated through practice. :meditate:

Thats your assumption, I dont advert from rebirth just to state again. I started with a view of Rebirth

I dont go by likes and dislikes, i go by what is and practice for understanding of the 4nt and D.O. via following the NEFP

If you must know, because of ignorance and clinging "I" like the idea of rebirth, but thats not important since one doesnt gain freedom by following likes and dislikes, only by acknowledgement and investigation of what is

Dukkha
Cause
Removal
Way to end


Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

Peter wrote:
Ben wrote:There is no clinging going on.
I don't know about you, Ben, but I see a lot of clinging in this thread - people clinging to their dislike of rebirth teachings. ;) You say "let it be" but they can't. They must fight and scratch and spit and do whatever they can to push away these teachings of the Buddha. Aversion is just another form of clinging and we can't just wish it away. Aversion, like clinging, is only eradicated through practice. :meditate:
Yup..lots of clinging to the notion that post mortem rebirth must be defended. And lots of aversion to the idea that there is only "just this". :) I agree that aversion is only eradicated through practice - no post-mortem rebirth is a bitter pill to swallow for those steeped in literalism, but practice eventually clears it up. Hang in there... ;)
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Its also important to remember that the view "there is no rebirth" is just as speculative as "there is rebirth"


The Buddhas own noble teaching transcends both with the removal of "I am" since its that which gives rise to both (and all the other speculative views)


Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

Ben wrote:Hi Craig

In fact, I don't believe you can separate the two without distorting the Buddha's teachings to one's own predelictions and delusions.
Imo, Ajahn Buddhadasa and Ven. Varasak Varadhammo did this quite well, clarifying not distorting the teachings.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Ceisiwr »

Also The Supreme Patriarch of Thailand has said this
"His Holiness' view on Heaven and Hell
... His Holiness’ two books on heaven and hell are truly analytical view on the subject from a Buddhist point of view. As we are so familiar, in religious sphere, the concept of heaven and hell is a very prominent belief. In many cases, it becomes the goal of religious practice itself. On this very subject, His Holiness critically analyses that the very concept and belief of heaven and hell in Buddhism is a cultural influence of indigenous culture and belief. He states: (I quote) ‘the subject of cosmology appeared in Buddhism is clearly can be seen that it is not ‘Buddhist teaching’ at all but an ancient geography. The concept and belief about it was included in Buddhist Canon merely because of strong influence of popular belief of the time. Later Commentaries further explain about heaven and hell in a greater detail distant itself from the original teaching of the Buddha. If Buddhism teaches such belief on heaven and hell it would not be Buddhism at all but an ancient geography. Buddha wouldn’t be the Buddha who delivered the Noble Truth and ‘timeless’ message for mankind.’ (p. 1) (end of the quote) He then shows in his teaching that the concept of heaven and hell in Buddhism are in fact symbolic, representing the quality of mind and spirituality instead. One can be in heaven and hell in this very earth and life. No need to wait until one dies...*"


http://www.sangharaja.org/en_main.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

clw_uk wrote:Its also important to remember that the view "there is no rebirth" is just as speculative as "there is rebirth"


The Buddhas own noble teaching transcends both with the removal of "I am" since its that which gives rise to both (and all the other speculative views)


Metta
Agreed. With practice, rebirth is verifiable in every mind moment - we create the world with every breath/sensation and movement of the mind. My point is that literal post-mortem rebirth isn't verifiable, so practice is a better bet than faith. Especially for modern people who tend toward extreme upward and outward displacement and who hunger for magic and mystery and reward/punishment.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

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thornbush
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by thornbush »

Gawd, is this gonna be another 69 paged rebirth thread again? :pig:
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

The beauty of having fingers is that if a thread causes irritation we can always click to a different thread. :popcorn:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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