The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

[chownah]

Tex wrote:
"The perception by some people internationally that the average American lives some opulent lifestyle is simply incorrect. The average American doesn't have it any better than the average Brit, German, Frenchman, Italian, Swede, Aussie, etc.
"
You seem to be defensive about being an American....my discussion about Americans comes from the Occupy Wall Street topic....Wall Street is in America....this demonstration started in America and I am familiar with how things go in America so I'm talking about America.

Why do you only want to compare Americans to that list of yours from Wikipedia I found the list of the highest 34 countries for median income your choices include Brit #8, German #15, French #18, Italian #23, Swede #12, and Aussie #5.....the LOWEST is Italian at #23 with a median income of 16,866......this just over half of the 31,111 reported for the US. So just consider if you only had half of your income....Italians would probably consider their lives alot more oppulent if they doubled their incomes tomorrow. But wait, it gets better, remember Mexico?....they are number 34 on the list with a median income of 4,689.....don't you think that a Mexican would think that there life style would become opulent if their incomes increased more than 6 fold tomorrow?

And the list stops at only the 34 top countries in the world....there is something like 200 countries in the world .......let's look closer to the middle of the entire list....let's look at India...with about 1/5th of the world population it is estimated that the average income is about $500 per year (note that the median income is probably substantially lower than the average income).....don't you think that the average Indian would think that the average Mexican has an oppulent life style....and what do you think that the average Indian thinks about the average American's lifestyle?.....

Need I continue this and look at Africa?????????

Tex,
I think you are doing a good job at representing just how short sighted Americans are and at how they have little ideas about the realities of life around the world.
chownah

[daverupa]

I think you are doing a good job at representing just how short sighted the top 34 countries of the world are and at how they have little ideas about the realities of life around the world.
chownah

Unless you say this, you're being grossly inconsistent in your opinion.

[kirk5a]

my discussion about Americans comes from the Occupy Wall Street topic....Wall Street is in America....this demonstration started in America and I am familiar with how things go in America so I'm talking about America.

So what's your point? Americans have nothing to complain about so there's nothing to protest?

[Tex]

You seem to be defensive about being an American....

Ahhh, the old "say something offensive, then when someone objects, accuse them of being defensive" routine. Surprised it took so long. But you're wrong. As I said, I'm no patriot. But when people make sweeping generalizations that are completely wrong about any group of people, I'm going to try to correct them.

Italians would probably consider their lives alot more oppulent if they doubled their incomes tomorrow. But wait, it gets better, remember Mexico?....they are number 34 on the list with a median income of 4,689.....don't you think that a Mexican would think that there life style would become opulent if their incomes increased more than 6 fold tomorrow?

And I'm sure in your head it's America's fault that wages are lower in Italy and Mexico, right? And just ignore the costs of goods and services in each country. $31k a year would be an opulent living in Mexico, sure. In the United States, it is far from it.

Tex,
I think you are doing a good job at representing just how short sighted Americans are and at how they have little ideas about the realities of life around the world.
chownah

And I think you are doing a wonderful job of not knowing what you're talking about and being condescending about it at the same time.

Forget it Chownah - if you want to continue to live under the delusion that the average American is some wealthy, greedy, selfish jerk whose problems are all his own fault, go right ahead. I can't imagine what you gain from that, but I'm done with this either way. Take care.

[chownah]

my discussion about Americans comes from the Occupy Wall Street topic....Wall Street is in America....this demonstration started in America and I am familiar with how things go in America so I'm talking about America.

So what's your point? Americans have nothing to complain about so there's nothing to protest?

My point in posting the exact words which you quote here was to show MAV that my comments were not chosen just to bash Americans as he implied.....
My point overall in posting is that I think that many people and Americans in particular are not aware of the way things are in the world....that they see what is around themselves in their immediate circle of being and think that this is representative of how things are everywhere in the world....that they think that the world is made up of people like themselves whose situations are the same........and.......I'm trying to give them a broader perspective on what human life is like all over the planet. Of course many of them will only get defensive when I point out the kinds of things I include in my posts here but I expect that and only hope that some will start to question their ethnocentric view of the world and start to see how things really are.
chownah

[manas]

I can recall a place where the Buddha says (according to sutta) that a layperson should earn their living honestly, 'by the sweat of one's brow', and obviously, without thieving and trickery. Those who plant no seed in the ground to feed others, nurse no wound, build no house, nor do any other useful thing for humanity, but *only* trade with other people's hard earned money (just figures on a screen to them, anyway): these greedy investors / elite bankers et al do need to be held to account, because by their 'occupation' so many people are losing their jobs, houses, all they honestly worked for, on account of the boundless greed of these people. They really are like parasites who live immensely wealthy lives off the hard work of others, and surely we can understand a bit of 'harsh speech' from the protesters and possibly see it in perspective.

[Jhana4]

[chownah]

I'd really like to see a sutta reference where the Buddha teaches about how we should only make our living by "the sweat of our brow".....I don't think he said that or anything else directly to that effect.....can anyone provide one/some?
chownah

[ground]

I can recall a place where the Buddha says (according to sutta) that a layperson should earn their living honestly, 'by the sweat of one's brow', and obviously, without thieving and trickery. Those who plant no seed in the ground to feed others, nurse no wound, build no house, nor do any other useful thing for humanity, but *only* trade with other people's hard earned money (just figures on a screen to them, anyway): these greedy investors / elite bankers et al do need to be held to account, because by their 'occupation' so many people are losing their jobs, houses, all they honestly worked for, on account of the boundless greed of these people. They really are like parasites who live immensely wealthy lives off the hard work of others, and surely we can understand a bit of 'harsh speech' from the protesters and possibly see it in perspective.

What appears as "parasites" in times of decay appears as "symbiotic support" in times of flourishing abundance. The play of hope and fear manifesting at different times.


Kind regards

[cooran]

I'd really like to see a sutta reference where the Buddha teaches about how we should only make our living by "the sweat of our brow".....I don't think he said that or anything else directly to that effect.....can anyone provide one/some?
chownah

Hello chownah,

Possibly this sutta?

Conditions of Worldly Progress
"Four conditions, Vyagghapajja,[3] conduce to a householder's weal and happiness in this very life. Which four?
"The accomplishment of persistent effort (utthana-sampada), the accomplishment of watchfulness (arakkha-sampada), good friendship (kalyanamittata) and balanced livelihood (sama-jivikata).

"What is the accomplishment of persistent effort?
"Herein, Vyagghapajja, by whatsoever activity a householder earns his living, whether by farming, by trading, by rearing cattle, by archery, by service under the king, or by any other kind of craft — at that he becomes skillful and is not lazy. He is endowed with the power of discernment as to the proper ways and means; he is able to carry out and allocate (duties). This is called the accomplishment of persistent effort.

"What is the accomplishment of watchfulness?
"Herein, Vyagghapajja, whatsoever wealth a householder is in possession of, obtained by dint of effort, collected by strength of arm, by the sweat of his brow, justly acquired by right means — such he husbands well by guarding and watching so that kings would not seize it, thieves would not steal it, fire would not burn it, water would not carry it away, nor ill-disposed heirs remove it. This is the accomplishment of watchfulness.

"What is good friendship?
"Herein, Vyagghapajja, in whatsoever village or market town a householder dwells, he associates, converses, engages in discussions with householders or householders' sons, whether young and highly cultured or old and highly cultured, full of faith (saddha),[4] full of virtue (sila), full of charity (caga), full of wisdom (pañña). He acts in accordance with the faith of the faithful, with the virtue of the virtuous, with the charity of the charitable, with the wisdom of the wise. This is called good friendship.

"What is balanced livelihood?
"Herein, Vyagghapajja, a householder knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income.
"Just as the goldsmith,[5] or an apprentice of his, knows, on holding up a balance, that by so much it has dipped down, by so much it has tilted up; even so a householder, knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income.
"If, Vyagghapajja, a householder with little income were to lead an extravagant life, there would be those who say — 'This person enjoys his property like one who eats wood-apple.'[6] If, Vyagghapajja, a householder with a large income were to lead a wretched life, there would be those who say — 'This person will die like a starveling.'

From the trans. of AN 8.54 by Narada Thera Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja) Sutta: Conditions of Welfare
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[ground]

"What is the accomplishment of watchfulness?
"Herein, Vyagghapajja, whatsoever wealth a householder is in possession of, obtained by dint of effort, collected by strength of arm, by the sweat of his brow, justly acquired by right means — such he husbands well by guarding and watching so that kings would not seize it, thieves would not steal it, fire would not burn it, water would not carry it away, nor ill-disposed heirs remove it. This is the accomplishment of watchfulness.

Maybe this should be amended by "by strength of intellect" these days?


Kind regards

[Ben]

"What is the accomplishment of watchfulness?
"Herein, Vyagghapajja, whatsoever wealth a householder is in possession of, obtained by dint of effort, collected by strength of arm, by the sweat of his brow, justly acquired by right means — such he husbands well by guarding and watching so that kings would not seize it, thieves would not steal it, fire would not burn it, water would not carry it away, nor ill-disposed heirs remove it. This is the accomplishment of watchfulness.

Maybe this should be amended by "by strength of intellect" these days?


Kind regards

I don't think it needs to, Ming

justly acquired by right means

would include non-labour related professions.
kind regards,

Ben

[manas]

I'd really like to see a sutta reference where the Buddha teaches about how we should only make our living by "the sweat of our brow".....I don't think he said that or anything else directly to that effect.....can anyone provide one/some?
chownah

I never said *only*...Anyway, although I do remember reading that 'sweat of one's brow' quote, I cannot now find that quote, but I think it was just a 'figure of speech' implying that one should actually be doing something productive, and putting forth effort in one's work (but I'm speculating here). I certainly was not implying that the Buddha said we all have to do work that involves working up a sweat...haha... Anyway, regarding Wall Street, take a look at this:

A balanced livelihood

"Herein, Vyagghapajja, a householder knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income.

"Just as the goldsmith, or an apprentice of his, knows, on holding up a balance, that by so much it has dipped down, by so much it has tilted up; even so a householder, knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income."

— AN 8.54

Interesting...'don't spend more than you earn!', pretty clearly spelt out.



EDIT: I wish to thank all those above who recalled the location of and / or found that quote...I knew I had read it somewhere!!

[Dan74]

As I see it, the Occupy movement is not really about complaining, which chowna seems to think.

It is saying "no" to ruthless corporations and their greed and it is looking to reimagine a just society, a truly participatory democracy when citizens have a real say, where we feel empowered to create a better more wholesome world for ourselves and our children.

Of course a lot of people are suffering in this economic climate and it is a cynical exercise to just say "get retrained" or there are others much worse off then you. This is always true. And yes, we should all take responsibility for our part in whatever misfortunes befall us. It is more skillful and useful for the future. But taking Wall Street to task, not only for its role in the GFC, but for jacking up world food prices and causing famine and mass farmer suicide, for instance, and many other examples of ruthless and psychopathic corporate behaviour, is way way overdue.

The way financial markets work in the US encourages dangerous and damaging speculation. The culture of the financial markets is predicated on one thing alone - short term gain. Then there is the military-industrial complex which sells weapons to the very regimes we have condemned for abuses. In fact as the Arab Spring was unfolding, the British PM was on a weapon sales tour of Middle East and North Africa and the French Foreign Minister offered Tunisian dictator to help his police with crowd control.

This culture of greed and environmental destruction is incompatible with the Dhamma, incompatible with basic human decency in fact. And this is what the Occupy movement means to me.

[Ben]

Thank you, Dan!