Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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retrofuturist
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Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Venerable Mettanando says...
Of course, there was a case of a gay monk who was overcome by sexual desire and could no longer restrain himself. He was seducing his friends and novices to have sex with him. They rejected him so he left the monastery and had sex with men who were elephant keepers and horse keepers. When news spread around the entire Buddhist community that he was homosexual, the Buddha was alerted to the problem and he issued a rule for the community not to give any ordination to a homosexual, and those ordained gays are to be expelled. (Vin.I, 86).

The Buddha was more tolerant of lesbianism than male homosexuality. Nuns who were caught in lesbian practices were not expelled from the order. They must confess to the fellows about their practice, and then the offence will be redeemed. (Vin. IV, 261)
Source: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 29,0,0,1,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this correct? Does anyone have any references that validate Venerable Mettanando's statements? Is he representing the Vinaya correctly?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by plwk »

Once again, is 'pandaka' an exclusive term for 'gay'? :thinking:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings plwk,

Previous topic...

paṇḍaka
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Venerable Mettanando says...
Of course, there was a case of a gay monk who was overcome by sexual desire and could no longer restrain himself. He was seducing his friends and novices to have sex with him. They rejected him so he left the monastery and had sex with men who were elephant keepers and horse keepers. When news spread around the entire Buddhist community that he was homosexual, the Buddha was alerted to the problem and he issued a rule for the community not to give any ordination to a homosexual, and those ordained gays are to be expelled. (Vin.I, 86).

The Buddha was more tolerant of lesbianism than male homosexuality. Nuns who were caught in lesbian practices were not expelled from the order. They must confess to the fellows about their practice, and then the offence will be redeemed. (Vin. IV, 261)
Source: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 29,0,0,1,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this correct? Does anyone have any references that validate Venerable Mettanando's statements? Is he representing the Vinaya correctly?

Metta,
Retro. :)
News to me. Our monk seems to be taking paṇḍaka as referring to homosexual.

See: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 22,0,0,1,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/201 ... rsion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by cooran »

Hello Paul,

I think Ven. Mettanando maybe referring to a narrow and probably incorrect translation of ''pandaka'' -

This article is worth reading:

Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism by A. L. De Silva

EXTRACT: ''A type of person called a pandaka is occasionally mentioned in the Vinaya in contexts that make it clear that such a person is some kind of sexual non-conformist. The Vinaya also stipulates that pandakas are not allowed to be ordained, and if, inadvertently, one has been, he is expelled. According to commentary, this is because pandakas are "full of passions, unquenchable lust and are dominated by the desire for sex." The word pandaka has been translated as either hermaphrodite or eunuch, while Zwilling has recently suggested that it may simply mean a homosexual.

It is more probable that ancient Indians, like most modern Asians, considered only the extremely effeminate, exhibitionist homosexual (the screaming queen in popular perception) to be deviant while the less obvious homosexual was simply considered a little more opportunistic or a little less fussy than other 'normal' males.

As the Buddha seems to have had a profound understanding of human nature and have been remarkably free from prejudice, and as there is not evidence that homosexuals are any more libidinous or that they have any more difficulties in maintaining celibacy than heterosexuals, it seems unlikely that the Buddha would exclude homosexuals per se from the monastic life. The term pandaka therefore probably does not refer to homosexuals in general but rather to the effeminate, self-advertising and promiscuous homosexual.''
http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by cooran »

Sorry - posted before I had seen Tilt's post - we're virtually saying the same thing.

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Fede »

Rather like the CofE ordaining homosexual priests - providing they remain celibate.
The RC church, however, has a total outright ban on homosexuals ordaining. Though how they tell, is worrying.....

"....Culling candidates has become an arduous process of testing, interviewing and making decisions - based on social science, church dogma and gut instinct."

From here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/nyregion/31gay.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good grief...... :shock: :toilet:

Other than relying on any candidate's ability to be absolutely completely transparently honest about it - wouldn't the candidate's sincerity in his practice be more of a yardstick?

(If this is considered :offtopic: I apologise. feel free to delete. )
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Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Aloka
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Aloka »

The Buddha was more tolerant of lesbianism than male homosexuality
I am puzzled by this statement made by Ven Mettannando. How do we know that this is true ?
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Mr Man
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Mr Man »

Slightly OT but is a the Ven still a Ven.?

The article if from 2005
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by manas »

Aloka wrote:
The Buddha was more tolerant of lesbianism than male homosexuality
I am puzzled by this statement made by Ven Mettannando. How do we know that this is true ?
I have no idea if the above statement is true or not, but I did just reflect that orgasm for a male involves semen getting emitted (unless one is an adept at 'the big draw' and is able to draw up the energy, and stem the flow, of the semen at the right moment; and I'd say that back then, just as today, there are few who are adept at this). Even if you count the fact that women also emit a substance (this can vary greatly in quantity however), that substance has no life-potentiality in it. Furthermore, it might have been regarded that homosexual men were most likely going to penetrate each other, whereas lesbians would not be penetrating each other (well, not with a sexual organ, in any case...)

These are just two things that spring to mind, for which I have no evidence...but I intuit that the social mores of Indian culture just over 2500 years ago might have a few notions that we today might consider rather old-fashioned...bear in mind, however, that frequent letting of semen really messes with one's meditation practice, IME. Maybe that had something to do with it...? (ie, rather than any particular bias against homosexuality in males, compared with females).
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by cooran »

Mr Man wrote:Slightly OT but is a the Ven still a Ven.?

The article if from 2005
Hello, Mr Man, all,

He hasn't been a monk for some years, and didn't succeed with political ambitions either afaik:
Ven. Dr. Mettanando disrobes
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Sylvester »

A rather recent (2 decades back?) ordination that wrestled with this issue in one of the Thai forest lineages.

The candidate was what the Thais would call a "kathoey" and the accepted wisdom was that this would be one of the pandakas who were to be denied ordination.

The Preceptor (a very, very famous forest monk) apparently said that the candidate's traits were simply a continuation of his immediate past life - he was apparently a Laotian princess! They eventually decided to give the candidate ordination and as far as we can hear, he's a good monk. He seems to be a mettabhavana specialist, what with his magical handling of fierce jungle beasts.
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Aloka »

Sylvester wrote:A rather recent (2 decades back?) ordination that wrestled with this issue in one of the Thai forest lineages.

The candidate was what the Thais would call a "kathoey" and the accepted wisdom was that this would be one of the pandakas who were to be denied ordination.

The Preceptor (a very, very famous forest monk) apparently said that the candidate's traits were simply a continuation of his immediate past life - he was apparently a Laotian princess! They eventually decided to give the candidate ordination and as far as we can hear, he's a good monk. He seems to be a mettabhavana specialist, what with his magical handling of fierce jungle beasts.

I really enjoyed reading something so positive, thanks Sylvester. Can you tell us who the Preceptor was?

with metta,

Aloka
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Sylvester »

Dear Aloka

Pls forgive me if I decide to leave the Ajahn and his sangha anonymous. :anjali:
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Post by Aloka »

Sylvester wrote:Dear Aloka

Pls forgive me if I decide to leave the Ajahn and his sangha anonymous. :anjali:
Sure, no problem :anjali:
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