Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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retrofuturist
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Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:30 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

plwk
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby plwk » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:44 am

Once again, is 'pandaka' an exclusive term for 'gay'? :thinking:

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:45 am

Greetings plwk,

Previous topic...

paṇḍaka
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1698

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:56 am


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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:06 am

Hello Paul,

I think Ven. Mettanando maybe referring to a narrow and probably incorrect translation of ''pandaka'' -

This article is worth reading:

Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism by A. L. De Silva

EXTRACT: ''A type of person called a pandaka is occasionally mentioned in the Vinaya in contexts that make it clear that such a person is some kind of sexual non-conformist. The Vinaya also stipulates that pandakas are not allowed to be ordained, and if, inadvertently, one has been, he is expelled. According to commentary, this is because pandakas are "full of passions, unquenchable lust and are dominated by the desire for sex." The word pandaka has been translated as either hermaphrodite or eunuch, while Zwilling has recently suggested that it may simply mean a homosexual.

It is more probable that ancient Indians, like most modern Asians, considered only the extremely effeminate, exhibitionist homosexual (the screaming queen in popular perception) to be deviant while the less obvious homosexual was simply considered a little more opportunistic or a little less fussy than other 'normal' males.

As the Buddha seems to have had a profound understanding of human nature and have been remarkably free from prejudice, and as there is not evidence that homosexuals are any more libidinous or that they have any more difficulties in maintaining celibacy than heterosexuals, it seems unlikely that the Buddha would exclude homosexuals per se from the monastic life. The term pandaka therefore probably does not refer to homosexuals in general but rather to the effeminate, self-advertising and promiscuous homosexual.''
http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm


with metta
Chris
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:07 am

Sorry - posted before I had seen Tilt's post - we're virtually saying the same thing.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Fede » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:16 am

Rather like the CofE ordaining homosexual priests - providing they remain celibate.
The RC church, however, has a total outright ban on homosexuals ordaining. Though how they tell, is worrying.....

"....Culling candidates has become an arduous process of testing, interviewing and making decisions - based on social science, church dogma and gut instinct."

From here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/nyregion/31gay.html

Good grief...... :shock: :toilet:

Other than relying on any candidate's ability to be absolutely completely transparently honest about it - wouldn't the candidate's sincerity in his practice be more of a yardstick?

(If this is considered :offtopic: I apologise. feel free to delete. )
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Aloka » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:58 am


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Mr Man
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Mr Man » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:37 am

Slightly OT but is a the Ven still a Ven.?

The article if from 2005

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby manas » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:46 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:28 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Sylvester » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:25 am

A rather recent (2 decades back?) ordination that wrestled with this issue in one of the Thai forest lineages.

The candidate was what the Thais would call a "kathoey" and the accepted wisdom was that this would be one of the pandakas who were to be denied ordination.

The Preceptor (a very, very famous forest monk) apparently said that the candidate's traits were simply a continuation of his immediate past life - he was apparently a Laotian princess! They eventually decided to give the candidate ordination and as far as we can hear, he's a good monk. He seems to be a mettabhavana specialist, what with his magical handling of fierce jungle beasts.

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Aloka » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:55 am


Sylvester
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Sylvester » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:53 am

Dear Aloka

Pls forgive me if I decide to leave the Ajahn and his sangha anonymous. :anjali:

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Aloka » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:41 pm


Bankei
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Bankei » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:57 am

There are plenty of gay monks in Thailand today. by this I mean openly homosexual men. Most of them refrain from sexual activity while a monk though.

I once had my hair cut by a ladyboy (with breasts) and she had just been a monk to 'thaam bun' for her deceased father.
-----------------------
Bankei

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:36 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Aloka » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:17 am


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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:30 am

Hi Aloka,

All I can find in the rules http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... -pati.html
is:
31. Should two bhikkhunīs share a single bed, it is to be confessed. [Cv.V.19.2]

32. Should two bhikkhunīs share a single blanket or sleeping mat, it is to be confessed. [Cv.V.19.2]

there is also:
4. (The insertion of) a dildo is to be confessed.

For Bhikkhus: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sg-1
1. Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

1. Intentional emission of semen, except while dreaming, entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community.

Note that "to be confessed" is less serious than "meetings of the community" or, of course, "defeated".

:anjali:
Mike

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Aloka
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Re: Homosexuality in the early Buddhist Sangha

Postby Aloka » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:39 pm

Thanks Mike.


:anjali:


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