MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:44 am

Sure Retro, that's clearly what the whole exposition is about.

I'm just drawing attention to the part of the passage where one could make a case that the Buddha is actually speaking in a very straight-forward, common-sense maner using a fire as an example. Just as a modern teacher might. I suspect that there are a number of passages, such as this one, that ancient and modern commentators treat in very complicated ways, that are actually quite straightforward if the proper context is recognized.

Perhaps I'll start a thread on "common-sense interpretations of sutta passages" sometime if I can gather together enough examples...

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:48 am

Greetings Mike,

That would be interesting - I agree there is often unnecessary over-complication in various interpretations.

Often the suttas are pointing to the same thing, just in different ways, using different frames of reference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:23 pm

Ṭhanissaro has always overreached with his viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ viewpoint.

K.R. Norman has mentioned in his writings that the viññāṇa Sāti is stuck on is the Upaniṣadic notion found in Bṛhadāraṇaka Upaniṣad, perhaps this will be of interest :

As is well known, the attā is specifically denied as a permanent entity in Theravāda Buddhism, although the word is of course widely used in Pāli [Abbreviations of title of Pāli texts are as in the Epilegomena to the Critical Pāli Dictionary, Vol. I, Copenhagen, 1924-48. References are to the editions of the Pali Text Society.] in the everyday sense of “oneself”. The question then arises: If there is no permenant attā, then what transmigrates in the course of rebirths in saṃsāra? In the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhayasutta of the Majjhima-nikāya[M I 256-71.] we read of the bhikkhu Sāti, who so misunderstood the Buddha’s teaching that he thought it was viññāṇa “consciousness” which continued in saṃsāra (tad ev’ idaṃ viññāṇaṃ sandhāvati saṃsārati, anaññaṃ).[M I 256, 19-20.] This would appear to be a recollection by Sāti of some such statements found in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upanṣad that vijñāna continues: “idam mahad bhūtam anatam apāram viñānaghana eva [II.4.12], “This great being, endless, unlimited, consisting of nothing but intelligence”; sa vijñāno bhavati, sa vijñānam evānvavakrāmati [IV.4.2], “He becomes one intelligence; what had intelligence departs with him”; sa vā eṣa mahān aja ātmā yo ’yaṃ vijñānamayaḥ prāṇeṣu [IV.4.22], “Verily, he is the great unborn Self who is this (person) consisting of knowledge amongst the senses.” Radhakrishan’s note on Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad IV.4.1 states that “the principle of intelligence (vijñāna), after having absorbed all functions of consciousness, proceeds to continue in a new life” [S. Radhakrishan, The principle Upaniṣads, London 1953, p. 270.]

When Sati’s view was made known to the Buddha, he refuted it by pointing out that he had frequently taught that aññartra paccayā n’ atthi viññāṇassa sambhavo [M I 258, 20.] “Apart from condition there is no origination of consciousness”. He rejected the idea of a permanent viññāṇa which could transmigrate, by stressing the place of viññāṇa in the twelve-fold chain of the paṭicca-samuppāda “dependant origination”, where viññāṇa is caused by saṅkhāras “compounded formations” or “conditioned things”, and is itself the cause of nāmarūpa “name and form”.



Buddhism denied the existence both of a permanent soul and a permanent individuality. An individual is merely a group of five “elements of existence” (khandha), [Cf. evaṃ khandhesu santesu, hoti satto ti sammuti, S I 135, 21.]] “form” (rūpa), “feeling” (vedanā), “perception” (saññā), “mental-formations” (saṅkhāra) and “consciousness” (viññāṇa). If the “compounded formations” (saṅkhāra), the second link in the chain of dependent origination, are destroyed because their “ignorance” (avijjā), is destroyed by vijjā, then all compounded formations, including the passive “mental formations” (saṅkhāra) and other khandhas which go to make up the individual are destroyed and we are left only with the “uncompounded” (asaṅkhata), i.e. nibbāna, which is outside saṃsāra.

In these circumstances it is not surprising that the condition of being nibbuta or in nibbāna cannot be defined. The word nibbuta is also used of a fire which has gone out. Schrader long ago pointed out the Indian belief that an expiring flame does not really go out: vahner yathā yonigatasya mūrtir na dṛśyate naiva ca liṅganāśaḥ [Śvetāṣvatara Upaniṣad I.13, quoted by F. Otto Schrader, “On the problem of nirvāṇa”, in JPTS 1904-1905, p. 167 n. 2.] “as the form of a fire … is not seen nor its seed destroyed”. So it is with an individual who has gained nibbāna. His state cannot be described any more than the state of a fire which has gone out can be described. The only thing that is certain is that, because nibbāna is “not-self” (anatta), it cannot be reconciled with the views of those who think that the object of religious exertion is to re-unite the individual soul with Brahman or Ātman.


(Norman, Aspects of Early Buddhism 1990 p. 24-35)

See also:
A philological Approach to Buddhism, Norman, 1994
A Note on Atta in the Alagaddupama Sutta_Norman, 1981
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
 
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:15 pm

Thanks AB!

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:51 pm

[Nutriment and dependent origination]

"Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those about to come to be. What four? They are: physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth."

BB: Notes to Sutta MN9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html.
"Nutriment" (ahara) is to be understood in a brad sense as a prominent condtion for the individual life-continuity.
Physical food is an important condition for the physical body, contact for feeling, mental volition for consciousness, and conciousness for mentality-materiality, the psychophysical organism in its totality. Craving is called the origin nutriment in that the craving of the previous existence the source of the present individuality with its dependence upon and continual consumption of the four nutriments in this existence. For an annotated compilation of the commentarial texts on the nutriments, see Nyanaponika Thera, The Four Nutrients of Life.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html

MA: The Buddha states this passage and the following linking up the nutriments with dependent origination in order to show that he knows not merely the five aggregates but the entire chain of conditions responsible for their being.
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:31 am

Thanks Mike, for raising the nutriment/ahara point!

Sometime in April, there was some discussion on the 4 "ahara" in the discussion on DO here -

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8064&start=20#p129203

It seems clear from SN 12.64 that "ahara" served some function in the context of the establishment of consciousness.

On the other hand, MN 9 which you cited broadens the role of the ahara to -

...There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those seeking a new existence.

Cattārome, āvuso, āhārā bhūtānaṃ vā sattānaṃ ṭhitiyā, sambhavesīnaṃ vā anuggahāya.


I suspect the "maintenance" spoken of here is in relation to contact and kamma-vipaka as part of DO's 2nd nidana of sankhara-vinnana. After all, SN 12.2 does not limit itself to mind-consciousness, but encompasses all the 6 consciousness-es.

The Cetana Suttas in SN 12.38-39 go into a little more detail regarding the relationship between intention/anusayas and the maintenance and establishment of consciousness -

What one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is [a support for] the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṃ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā. Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti. Tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti. Āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbattiyā sati āyatiṃ jāti jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.


Perhaps Ven Nanavira's one-life interpretation of DO could have some basis on this distinction between the maintenance (ṭhitiyā) versus the establishment (patiṭṭhā) of consciousness. :stirthepot: As I see it, patiṭṭhā is always in the context of rebirth, whereas ṭhitiyā seems to function in the continued making of contact/phassa which results in feelings. It would be odd if DO's 2nd nidana were not amenable to explaining kamma-vipaka, considering that vinnana in that nidana includes all 6 consciousness-es. Any consciousness would thus need to be conjoined to feeling/vedana, which would account for kamma as sankhara leading to vedana as vipaka.

But, that being said, since the Cetana Suttas expressed the nidana between the sankharas (cetana and anusaya) and consciousness in the locative absolute, there is no good reason to insist that this nidana must import simultaneity and not temporal disjunction : see the Ariyasavaka Suttas, SN 12.49-50.
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1501
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:52 am

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Thanks Mike, for raising the nutriment/ahara point!

Wasn't me, it was the Buddha... :buddha1:

This is a really long and complicated sutta. It goes over much of the same ground as DN 15 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html, including the "descent into the womb" passage...

I'm not sure if it helps anyone else, but I find going through posting comments piecemeal helps me to digest it...

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:40 am

...
"Formations have ignorance as a condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: 'With ignorance as condtion, formations.'"

"Good, bhikkhus. so you say thus, and I also say thus: 'When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. That is, with ignorance as condition, formations..."


BB: This is a statement of the abstract principle of dependent origination exemplified by the twelvefold formula. The abstract principle on cessation is stated below:
    'When this does not exist, this does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.'
Namamoli had rendered the principles thus:
"That is when this is; that arises with the arising of this."
"That is not when this is not; that ceases with the cessation of this."
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:42 am

"Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way would you run back into the past, ... run forward to the future, ... be inwardly perplexed about the present thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from, where will it go'?"

See also MN 131-134: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nana.html which discusses this "I-making" in detail.


"... knowing and seeing this way, would you speak thus: 'The Recluse says this and we speak at the bidding of the Recluse.'?
... do you speak only of what you have known, seen and understood for youselves? ..."
"Good Bhikkhus, So you have been guided by me with this Dhamma, which is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves..."

BB: "The Recluse" is the Buddha.
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:05 am

"Bhikkhus, the decent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things..."

BB: The following portion of the discourse may be understood as the concrete application of dependent origination --- so far expressed only as a doctrinal formula --- to the course of individual existence.
The factors from consciousness through feeling result from past ignorance and formations, the cause factors of craving and clinging build up a continuation of the samsaric round, and finally dependent origination is connected to the appearance of the Buddha and his teaching of the Dhamma, showing that the practice of the Dhamma is the means of bringing the round to and end.


"... when there is the union of the mother and the father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, though the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place."

MA: the gandhabba is the being arriving there. It is not someone (i.e. a disembodied spirit) standing nearby watching the future parents having intercourse, but a being driven on by the mechanism of kamma, due to be reborn on that occasion.

BB: The exact import of the word grandhabba in relation to the rebirth process is not explained in the Nikayas, and the word in this sense occurs only here an in DN 15 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
DN 15 speaks of conciousness as "descending into the mother's womb", this being a condition for rebirth to take place. thus we may identify the gandhabba here as the stream of conscisousness, conceived mroe animistically as coming over from the previous existence and bringing along its total accumulation of kammic tendencies and personality traits. The fullest study of the concept of the gandhabba is Vijesekera "Vedic Gandharva and Pali Gandhabba", in Buddhist and Vedic Studies, pp. 191-202.
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby cooran » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 am

Though I learn from all the threads in this section, I particularly appreciate this thread Mike, the method being used, and the effort you are putting into it.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7370
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 am

"... Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels --- whether pleasant of painful or neither painful-nor-pleasent --- he delights in that feeling, welcomes and remains holding onto it."

BB: MA explains that her delights in the painful feeling by clinging to it with thoughts of "I" and "mine". In confirmation of tht statement that a worldling may delight in painful feelings, one thinks not only of full-fledged masochism but also of the common tendency of people to put themselves into distressing situations in order to reinforce their sense of ego.


" On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing, he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder."

MA: An immeasurable mind (appamanacetao) is a supramundane mind; this means that he possesses the path.


"Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neiether-painful-nor-pleasent, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding onto it."

BB: This statement reveals that the chain of dependent origination is broken at the link between feeling and craving. Feeling arises necessarily because the body acquired through past craving is subject to the maturation of past kamma. however, if one does not delight in feeling, craving will not have the opportunity to arise and set off reactions of like and dislike that provide further fuel for the round, and thus the round will come to an end.


"Bhikkhus, remember this [discourse] of mine briefly as deliverance in the destruction of craving; but [remember] the bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, as caught upo in a vast net of craving, in the trammel of craving."
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:21 am

Thanks Chris,
cooran wrote:Though I learn from all the threads in this section, I particularly appreciate this thread Mike, the method being used, and the effort you are putting into it.

This is certainly a long and interesting Sutta... :reading:

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:34 am

mikenz66 wrote:"... Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels --- whether pleasant of painful or neither painful-nor-pleasent --- he [b]delights in that feeling, welcomes and remains holding onto it." [/b]

BB: MA explains that her delights in the painful feeling by clinging to it with thoughts of "I" and "mine". In confirmation of tht statement that a worldling may delight in painful feelings, one thinks not only of full-fledged masochism but also of the common tendency of people to put themselves into distressing situations in order to reinforce their sense of ego.


" On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing, he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder."

MA: An immeasurable mind (appamanacetao) is a supramundane mind; this means that he possesses the path.


"Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neiether-painful-nor-pleasent, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding onto it."

BB: This statement reveals that the chain of dependent origination is broken at the link between feeling and craving. Feeling arises necessarily because the body acquired through past craving is subject to the maturation of past kamma. however, if one does not delight in feeling, craving will not have the opportunity to arise and set off reactions of like and dislike that provide further fuel for the round, and thus the round will come to an end.



Hi Mike

I'm glad that you highlighted these sections from the sutta that discuss "delight" (nandi). In the underlined text above, BB (following Ven Nanamoli's masochism theory), explains this odd phenomenon of "delight" in unpleasant feelings. His explanation implies some sort of intentional search/quest for unpleasant feelings in order to feed the sense of "Self".

Let's look at the key terms in that section -

Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging/sustenance. From his clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. ...

So evaṃ anurodhavirodhaṃ samāpanno yaṃ kiñci vedanaṃ vedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, so taṃ vedanaṃ abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa taṃ vedanaṃ abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosāya tiṭṭhato uppajjati nandī. Yā vedanāsu nandī tadupādānaṃ, tassupādānapaccayā bhavo,


What if this "delight" is not intentional (as suggested by BB) but a sub-conscious movement of the mind? What if "delight" in unpleasant feelings is that reflexive movement of the mind to not only identify with that feeling, but a movement that holds onto the feeling, thereby triggering patighanusaya as manifested in grief?

A similar treatment of "delight" in the 3 vedanas is found in MN 149, taking Ven Thanissaro's translation -

The Blessed One said: "Not knowing, not seeing the eye as it actually is present; not knowing, not seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present; not knowing, not seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — as it actually is present, one is infatuated with ( sārajjati) the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

"For him — infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

"Not knowing, not seeing the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the mind...

...

However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing & seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — as it actually is present, one is not infatuated with the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness.

Cakkhuṃ, bhikkhave, ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, rūpe ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusamphassaṃ ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tampi ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusmiṃ sārajjati, rūpesu sārajjati, cakkhuviññāṇe sārajjati, cakkhusamphasse sārajjati, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tasmimpi sārajjati.

Tassa sārattassa saṃyuttassa sammūḷhassa assādānupassino viharato āyatiṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā upacayaṃ gacchanti. Taṇhā cassa ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, sā cassa pavaḍḍhati. Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti; kāyikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti; kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti. So kāyadukkhampi cetodukkhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.

Cakkhuñca kho, bhikkhave, jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, rūpe jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusamphassaṃ jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tampi jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusmiṃ na sārajjati, rūpesu na sārajjati, cakkhuviññāṇe na sārajjati, cakkhusamphasse na sārajjati, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tasmimpi na sārajjati.

Tassa asārattassa asaṃyuttassa asammūḷhassa ādīnavānupassino viharato āyatiṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā apacayaṃ gacchanti. Taṇhā cassa ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, sā cassa pahīyati. Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi darathā pahīyanti; kāyikāpi santāpā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pahīyanti; kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pahīyanti. So kāyasukhampi cetosukhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.



Although Ven Thanissaro translates "sārajjati" as "infatuated with", while BB translates is as "inflamed by lust for", the PED gives a much more neutral explanation of "attached to".

I've highlighted "The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that ". I'm sure everyone will recognise this as part of the 2nd Noble Truth -

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ— yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ— kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.


It would therefore seem that "nandi" is a very important component of craving. So, must the nandi/delight be intentional, to fall within tanha/craving? Or can "nandi" be even unintentional?

It should be noted that the 2nd Noble Truth is phrased as "taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī ". In this syntactical structure, the noun precedes all the modifiers. This is therefore not a situation of adjectives qualifying tanha as a noun. In fact, tanha as noun predicates all of the modifiers (ie it is a non-restrictive nexus). This means that whatever is tanha will have all of the modifiers to describe it. In other words, there can be no tanha, if there is no delight/nandi.

Does one therefore need to be a masochist to delight in dukkha vedana, or is nandi simply that habitual tendency of the mind to linger with feelings over which we typically have little control?
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1501
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:28 am

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Does one therefore need to be a masochist to delight in dukkha vedana, or is nandi simply that habitual tendency of the mind to linger with feelings over which we typically have little control?

Interesting questions!

I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments as perhaps referring to people doing difficult and/or dangerous things in order to "feel alive". Playing rugby, or bungee jumping, or mountain climbing, to mention a few local obsessions...

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10114
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Previous

Return to Study Group

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests