Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

TMingyur wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.
Could you say why? It seems to me "states of absorption" is a more accurate description of jhana.

Spiny
The intended meaning was:
"absorption" is resting or dwelling in what actually isn't worth it in the context of the goal.
In contrast to this "transient momentary event" refers to the event of merely abandoning what has to abandoned anyway but then go ahead immediately instead of resting and delighting.

Kind regards
Maybe "stages of absorption" captures it better? Or maybe "stages of concentration"? So it's a dynamic progression, not a state that one gets stuck in.
I assume you're not arguing that concentration is unecessary?

Spiny
pegembara
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by pegembara »

Yes and no.

Anupada Sutta: One After Another

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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ground
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
The intended meaning was:
"absorption" is resting or dwelling in what actually isn't worth it in the context of the goal.
In contrast to this "transient momentary event" refers to the event of merely abandoning what has to abandoned anyway but then go ahead immediately instead of resting and delighting.

Kind regards
Maybe "stages of absorption" captures it better? Or maybe "stages of concentration"? So it's a dynamic progression, not a state that one gets stuck in.
I assume you're not arguing that concentration is unecessary?

Spiny
When analyzing an object one should concentrate on it. Otherwise analysis is impossible.
Or when seeking states as a temporary dwelling the mind has to be collected in a modus operandi that is appropriate.

From my point of view the former is necessary while the latter is not.

kind regards
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