masturbation what's wrong?

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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:55 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Nicro wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:Have you tried masturbation? It is cheap, clean, quick and free of hurt feelings.
You can regulate how much you indulge while you learn to step down.


Easiest and most obvious answer.


That is bad advice because it just feeds the recurrence of lust.


I disagree. In 15 min of his time, he gets mind off of sex and freed from thoughts of massage parlors.

The alternative methods offered by Theravada are to either cultivate disgust or disenchantment for sex. That works for monks and nuns. That doesn't work well for a lay person who hopes to have a relationship someday.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby ground » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:48 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Have you tried masturbation? It is cheap, clean, quick and free of hurt feelings.
You can regulate how much you indulge while you learn to step down.

Nicro wrote:Easiest and most obvious answer.

TMingyur wrote:That is bad advice because it just feeds the recurrence of lust.

Jhana4 wrote:I disagree. In 15 min of his time, he gets mind off of sex and freed from thoughts of massage parlors.

until the same dukkha occurs again. C'mon feeding any sensual desire just perpetuates it.

Jhana4 wrote:The alternative methods offered by Theravada are to either cultivate disgust or disenchantment for sex. That works for monks and nuns. That doesn't work well for a lay person who hopes to have a relationship someday.

Of course does it work for lay persons.
If there is fear of losing interest in sexual relationships then that is an instance of dukkha (fear) supporting dukkha (lust).

Kind regards
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:39 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:I disagree. In 15 min of his time, he gets mind off of sex and freed from thoughts of massage parlors.

until the same dukkha occurs again. C'mon feeding any sensual desire just perpetuates it.


No it does not. Satisfying a craving and then leaving it alone is not the same as stoking a desire into an attachment.

TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:The alternative methods offered by Theravada are to either cultivate disgust or disenchantment for sex. That works for monks and nuns. That doesn't work well for a lay person who hopes to have a relationship someday.

Of course does it work for lay persons.
If there is fear of losing interest in sexual relationships then that is an instance of dukkha (fear) supporting dukkha (lust).
Kind regards


Most relationships will not last ( or start ) if one partner has cultivated a disgust or a detachment for sex. The original poster hopes to have a relationship with the right person someday.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby David2 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:57 pm

Jhana4 wrote:No it does not. Satisfying a craving and then leaving it alone is not the same stoking a desire into an attachment.


You satisfy the craving once and it comes back and you satisfy it again... and it keeps coming back.

Or you don't satisfy the craving... it will get temporarily very strong... and then it will suddenly collapse and vanish after some time (of course only if you don't even satisfy the craving a single time).

That is the way dependent origination works.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:08 pm

If that was completely true there wouldn't be any arahants, as even they crave food and water if they do without either long enough.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby David2 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:12 pm

Jhana4 wrote:If that was completely true there wouldn't be any arahants, as even they crave food and water if they do without either long enough.


There's one difference between sexual craving and the craving for food and water.
You need food and water to survive. It is necessary to satisfy those cravings regularly to not die.
You don't need sex to survive.

Edit: On the other hand, I don't think arahants have any cravings.
I don't think an arahant craves for food if he is starving. There would be a feeling of extreme hunger, but he is an arahant, so no craving develops.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Mr Man » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:32 pm

No big production number just say no. You'd be surprised by how well it works. ;)
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby befriend » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:30 pm

ive heard from a monk that you CANT DO THE FOULNESS OF THE BODY MEDITATION WITHOUT A TEACHER, OR YOU CAN BECOME SUICIDAL. it is a very intense bhavana.
why do you want to get rid of your lust, are you addicted to porn or something. maybe contemplating that all pleasure and pain come and then they pass, this helps sooth the passions. eat less food, because when your comfortable you get aroused easier.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:19 am

A jog and a cold shower works too.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Dan74 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:05 am

At 25 most men have pretty high libido (lust) and thoughts about women (or men if so inclined) are bound to surface up fairly frequently.

Building concentration and an on-going breath awareness is very beneficial in this regard, I found, and when lustful thoughts come, to let them come and let them go while maintaining equanimity rather than beating yourself over it. It takes time and practice and I am no master but it does help reduce and then eliminate a habit of fantasizing and dwelling on lustful thoughts.

As others have noted, a healthy lifestyle including sport, good food (not too spicy, not too much garlic and onion if possible) also help. I find it important to recall the Buddha's suggestion to cultivate wholesome habits and avoid unwholesome ones. To be committed to practice and wholesome compassionate work rather than self-indulgence and pleasure-seeking.

It's ongoing work and it takes patience and a gentle approach. In the meantime I opt for flower porn rather than the other kind:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103430830473331312618/Flowers#

There is a way to be sensual and enjoy the beauty of the world and the pleasure of the physical form without recourse to sex. This too is probably to be let gone of in due course, but I find it OK at this stage in my practice.
_/|\_
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby santa100 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:47 am

Exercises are great way to use your energy in an efficient and beneficial way. Outdoor cardios are very beneficial. I'd recommend either jogging or biking. If you've never done it, make sure to start out slowly (~5 - 10 minutes) and gradually build it up to 1 hr - 1 and a half. Try to do it 3 days/week. For the other 3 days, try 1 hr weight-lifting or other kind of strength training. So after work, you'll either hit the gym or on the road running, by the time you get home to make dinner, you won't have much time and energy left for anything else but you still feel really good though..
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby ground » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:25 am

Jhana4 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:I disagree. In 15 min of his time, he gets mind off of sex and freed from thoughts of massage parlors.

until the same dukkha occurs again. C'mon feeding any sensual desire just perpetuates it.


No it does not. Satisfying a craving and then leaving it alone is not the same as stoking a desire into an attachment.


Speaking from a male perspective: I guess it strongly depends on the way masturbation is done. If it is done detached, not mentally involved, not phantasizing, renouncing any sensual pleasure, like kind of defecating or a surgical operation then masturbation may not be feeding sexual lust. But if mental delight, attachment and intention for delight and thoughts stimulating lust are involved then it will definitely feed the recurrence of lust. Then it is karmical activity entailing recurrence, increasing the weight of dukkha, enhancing habitual pattern.

I doubt that the issue of masturbation can be assessed by a human of the other gender. So my assumption is that the OP is male and I am commenting as one who has a male body.

I would not dare to comment on female masturbation because how could I know anything about it?

Jhana4 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:The alternative methods offered by Theravada are to either cultivate disgust or disenchantment for sex. That works for monks and nuns. That doesn't work well for a lay person who hopes to have a relationship someday.

Of course does it work for lay persons.
If there is fear of losing interest in sexual relationships then that is an instance of dukkha (fear) supporting dukkha (lust).
Kind regards


Most relationships will not last ( or start ) if one partner has cultivated a disgust or a detachment for sex. The original poster hopes to have a relationship with the right person someday.

The intention to have relationship here and lust there and vice versa. If there is this then there is that.
Who complains about what? :shrug:

Let's take the perspective that the suffering of lust may be an opportunity for the OP! There may be better things in life than having it dominated by desire and sexual relationship(s). I dare say so.

The OP asked for advice and one advice referred him to the effective method is which contemplating the disenchanting aspects of the body (that of others but also one's own). It is a straightforward method directed to the root of lust which is opposing thought and volition.

Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:40 am

TMingyur wrote:The OP asked for advice and one advice referrred him to the effective method is which contemplating the disenchanting aspects of the body (one own and that of others). It is a straightforward method directed to the root of lust which is opposing thought and volition.

The word "disenchantment" is probably a good one to use here. I don't think the idea is to become "disgusted" with the body (or other bodies). More to the point is to recognise that bodies are rather mundane things, and it's not necessary to chase after them...

I have found that just scanning repeatedly through the outer parts of my body ("Head hair, body hair, nails, skin, teeth") a few times helps me to "calm down" quite effectively (and have found no need to have to remember how to go through the rest of the body parts...). All that stuff becomes "just a body" and thoughts of attractiveness of other bodies tend to evaporate, not through "disgust" but more through the realisation that they are just hair/skin/teeth as well...

I should add that I am not celibate. But I find that these techniques are useful "relief" at times where acting out desires would be inappropriate or impractical...

:anjali:
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:29 am

Dear Ming,
TMingyur wrote:If it is done detached, not mentally involved, not phantasizing, renouncing any sensual pleasure, like kind of defecating or a surgical operation then masturbation may not be feeding sexual lust.

They tend to be a package deal, sexual stimulation and craving, always appearing together.
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby ground » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:06 am

Ben wrote:Dear Ming,
TMingyur wrote:If it is done detached, not mentally involved, not phantasizing, renouncing any sensual pleasure, like kind of defecating or a surgical operation then masturbation may not be feeding sexual lust.

They tend to be a package deal, sexual stimulation and craving, always appearing together.
kind regards,

Ben


I have been referring to masturbation as detached merely physical activity to get rid of accumulated semen which may be one decisive factor for instances of lust to occur. Not sure about the definiteness of scientific research in this area.

As I see it the expression "They tend" leaves open other possibilities. Dominance of this tendency may occur if there is involvement in the sphere of mental agitation, involvement in the sphere of "being overwhelmed" by lust.

I am refraining from objectivying what is utter individual experience and I am not making general claims holding these to be valid for the experience of all male human beings. Therefore I have written "may not" which to my knowledge implies a possibility, not an absolute claim.

Assuming that the accumulation of semen is a contributing parameter to occurences of lust
I would like to mention the phenomenon that emmission of semen does not only occur exclusively in the sphere of "sexual stimulation and craving", i.e. in the sphere of mentally grasping involvement (be it in the wake state or in dream). It may e.g. also occur in the case of parapalegics where there is no neural link between the mentality located in the brain and bodily function of genital organs. There may also be "stimulation" but it happens as mere physical kind of shunt in peripheral neuronal circuit. This shows that there is not necessarily craving involved and the stimulation is not necessarily "sexual" in its conventional meaning.


Kind regards
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:23 am

Greetings Ming,

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate it.
Leaving aside those people who have no neural link and ejaculate without sensation, and ariyas, I stand by what I said earlier.
If anyone thinks that they can masturbate without craving, then my personal opinion is that I believe they are mistaken.
Anywy, I think we might be drifting into the off-topic...
:focus:
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby ground » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:37 am

Ben wrote:If anyone thinks that they can masturbate without craving, then my personal opinion is that I believe they are mistaken.

I mentioned this as a theoretical prerequisite in the sphere of male bodies in response to jhana's general claim that masturbation does not feed recurrence of lust (in the course of which he/she did not even specify the gender this claim refers to).
I would like to add "Don't try this at home" but to be on the save side follow the Buddha's advice to contemplate the disenchanting aspects of bodies, be mindful of your thoughts and the objects you direct your senses to and modify your diet.


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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:43 am

Thanks again Ming for your clarification.
And for the record, jhana4 is a male.
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby manas » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:03 am

Hi rb3
well I'm glad there is someone who understands what it was like for me, when I was your age. (I'm sorry it had to be you, of course!) but joking aside...assuming that you are not planning to become a monk in the near future, I just can't see why you don't do what most single blokes do if they live alone, with no girlfriend, when the urge becomes intolerable - give 'madame palm and her five lovely handmaidens' a call. No charge, no expense, no worries. :tongue:

I'm joking about it because you really don't have a serious problem. You are just what is called a 'normal 25 year old man'. Lust is stronger when we are young, and very, very gradually tends to ease a bit with age and experience.

I look at it this way: do what causes the least harm, given the current situation. For some it would be, date and meet more women and get a girlfriend. For some, masturbate as much as is needed to not go and do something worse (like abandon a promise to oneself by visiting to a massage parlour...) For some (like myself) it is currently, trying to let go of masturbation (but not feeling too much guilt about it if it happens). And yes, for some the meditation on the loathsomness of the body is appropriate, accompanied by strict celibacy (not easy to maintain as a layperson...I've tried it). Whichever one you pick, choose one that is realistic, and that won't drive you nuts. Minimize harm...we might not be able to eliminate, but we can minimize...

By the way, our mindfulness doesn't have to go out the window (should we decide to) do self-pleasuring. We can always maintain a measure of sati-sampajanna, even during that particular act...I won't go into details as this is a Buddhist forum, but know the vedanas as they arise and pass away...witness your own craving, and see how it also changes over the session...even doing something that isn't strictly speaking very wholesome, we can still learn something, I've found.

:namaste:
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:21 am

Masturbation as meditation.
Now I think I have seen it all...
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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