MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

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cooran
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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Post by cooran »

Though I learn from all the threads in this section, I particularly appreciate this thread Mike, the method being used, and the effort you are putting into it.

with metta
Chris
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

"... Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels --- whether pleasant of painful or neither painful-nor-pleasent --- he delights in that feeling, welcomes and remains holding onto it."

BB: MA explains that her delights in the painful feeling by clinging to it with thoughts of "I" and "mine". In confirmation of tht statement that a worldling may delight in painful feelings, one thinks not only of full-fledged masochism but also of the common tendency of people to put themselves into distressing situations in order to reinforce their sense of ego.


" On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing, he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder."

MA: An immeasurable mind (appamanacetao) is a supramundane mind; this means that he possesses the path.


"Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neiether-painful-nor-pleasent, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding onto it."

BB: This statement reveals that the chain of dependent origination is broken at the link between feeling and craving. Feeling arises necessarily because the body acquired through past craving is subject to the maturation of past kamma. however, if one does not delight in feeling, craving will not have the opportunity to arise and set off reactions of like and dislike that provide further fuel for the round, and thus the round will come to an end.


"Bhikkhus, remember this [discourse] of mine briefly as deliverance in the destruction of craving; but [remember] the bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, as caught upo in a vast net of craving, in the trammel of craving."
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Chris,
cooran wrote:Though I learn from all the threads in this section, I particularly appreciate this thread Mike, the method being used, and the effort you are putting into it.
This is certainly a long and interesting Sutta... :reading:

:anjali:
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Sylvester
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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Post by Sylvester »

mikenz66 wrote:"... Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels --- whether pleasant of painful or neither painful-nor-pleasent --- he delights in that feeling, welcomes and remains holding onto it."

BB: MA explains that her delights in the painful feeling by clinging to it with thoughts of "I" and "mine". In confirmation of tht statement that a worldling may delight in painful feelings, one thinks not only of full-fledged masochism but also of the common tendency of people to put themselves into distressing situations in order to reinforce their sense of ego.


" On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing, he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder."

MA: An immeasurable mind (appamanacetao) is a supramundane mind; this means that he possesses the path.


"Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neiether-painful-nor-pleasent, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding onto it."

BB: This statement reveals that the chain of dependent origination is broken at the link between feeling and craving. Feeling arises necessarily because the body acquired through past craving is subject to the maturation of past kamma. however, if one does not delight in feeling, craving will not have the opportunity to arise and set off reactions of like and dislike that provide further fuel for the round, and thus the round will come to an end.
Hi Mike

I'm glad that you highlighted these sections from the sutta that discuss "delight" (nandi). In the underlined text above, BB (following Ven Nanamoli's masochism theory), explains this odd phenomenon of "delight" in unpleasant feelings. His explanation implies some sort of intentional search/quest for unpleasant feelings in order to feed the sense of "Self".

Let's look at the key terms in that section -
Engaged thus in compliance & opposition, he relishes any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — welcomes it, & remains fastened to it. As he relishes that feeling, welcomes it, & remains fastened to it, delight arises. Now, any delight in feeling is clinging/sustenance. From his clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. ...

So evaṃ anurodhavirodhaṃ samāpanno yaṃ kiñci vedanaṃ vedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, so taṃ vedanaṃ abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa taṃ vedanaṃ abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosāya tiṭṭhato uppajjati nandī. Yā vedanāsu nandī tadupādānaṃ, tassupādānapaccayā bhavo,
What if this "delight" is not intentional (as suggested by BB) but a sub-conscious movement of the mind? What if "delight" in unpleasant feelings is that reflexive movement of the mind to not only identify with that feeling, but a movement that holds onto the feeling, thereby triggering patighanusaya as manifested in grief?

A similar treatment of "delight" in the 3 vedanas is found in MN 149, taking Ven Thanissaro's translation -
The Blessed One said: "Not knowing, not seeing the eye as it actually is present; not knowing, not seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present; not knowing, not seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — as it actually is present, one is infatuated with ( sārajjati) the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

"For him — infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

"Not knowing, not seeing the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the mind...

...

However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing & seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — as it actually is present, one is not infatuated with the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness.

Cakkhuṃ, bhikkhave, ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, rūpe ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusamphassaṃ ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tampi ajānaṃ apassaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusmiṃ sārajjati, rūpesu sārajjati, cakkhuviññāṇe sārajjati, cakkhusamphasse sārajjati, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tasmimpi sārajjati.

Tassa sārattassa saṃyuttassa sammūḷhassa assādānupassino viharato āyatiṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā upacayaṃ gacchanti. Taṇhā cassa ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, sā cassa pavaḍḍhati. Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti; kāyikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti; kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti. So kāyadukkhampi cetodukkhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.

Cakkhuñca kho, bhikkhave, jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, rūpe jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhuviññāṇaṃ jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusamphassaṃ jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tampi jānaṃ passaṃ yathābhūtaṃ, cakkhusmiṃ na sārajjati, rūpesu na sārajjati, cakkhuviññāṇe na sārajjati, cakkhusamphasse na sārajjati, yamidaṃ cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā tasmimpi na sārajjati.

Tassa asārattassa asaṃyuttassa asammūḷhassa ādīnavānupassino viharato āyatiṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā apacayaṃ gacchanti. Taṇhā cassa ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, sā cassa pahīyati. Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi darathā pahīyanti; kāyikāpi santāpā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pahīyanti; kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pahīyanti. So kāyasukhampi cetosukhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.
Although Ven Thanissaro translates "sārajjati" as "infatuated with", while BB translates is as "inflamed by lust for", the PED gives a much more neutral explanation of "attached to".

I've highlighted "The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that ". I'm sure everyone will recognise this as part of the 2nd Noble Truth -
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ— yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ— kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.
It would therefore seem that "nandi" is a very important component of craving. So, must the nandi/delight be intentional, to fall within tanha/craving? Or can "nandi" be even unintentional?

It should be noted that the 2nd Noble Truth is phrased as "taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī ". In this syntactical structure, the noun precedes all the modifiers. This is therefore not a situation of adjectives qualifying tanha as a noun. In fact, tanha as noun predicates all of the modifiers (ie it is a non-restrictive nexus). This means that whatever is tanha will have all of the modifiers to describe it. In other words, there can be no tanha, if there is no delight/nandi.

Does one therefore need to be a masochist to delight in dukkha vedana, or is nandi simply that habitual tendency of the mind to linger with feelings over which we typically have little control?
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote: Does one therefore need to be a masochist to delight in dukkha vedana, or is nandi simply that habitual tendency of the mind to linger with feelings over which we typically have little control?
Interesting questions!

I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments as perhaps referring to people doing difficult and/or dangerous things in order to "feel alive". Playing rugby, or bungee jumping, or mountain climbing, to mention a few local obsessions...

:anjali:
Mike
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