masturbation what's wrong?

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santa100
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by santa100 »

Exercises are great way to use your energy in an efficient and beneficial way. Outdoor cardios are very beneficial. I'd recommend either jogging or biking. If you've never done it, make sure to start out slowly (~5 - 10 minutes) and gradually build it up to 1 hr - 1 and a half. Try to do it 3 days/week. For the other 3 days, try 1 hr weight-lifting or other kind of strength training. So after work, you'll either hit the gym or on the road running, by the time you get home to make dinner, you won't have much time and energy left for anything else but you still feel really good though..
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ground
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by ground »

Jhana4 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote: I disagree. In 15 min of his time, he gets mind off of sex and freed from thoughts of massage parlors.
until the same dukkha occurs again. C'mon feeding any sensual desire just perpetuates it.
No it does not. Satisfying a craving and then leaving it alone is not the same as stoking a desire into an attachment.
Speaking from a male perspective: I guess it strongly depends on the way masturbation is done. If it is done detached, not mentally involved, not phantasizing, renouncing any sensual pleasure, like kind of defecating or a surgical operation then masturbation may not be feeding sexual lust. But if mental delight, attachment and intention for delight and thoughts stimulating lust are involved then it will definitely feed the recurrence of lust. Then it is karmical activity entailing recurrence, increasing the weight of dukkha, enhancing habitual pattern.

I doubt that the issue of masturbation can be assessed by a human of the other gender. So my assumption is that the OP is male and I am commenting as one who has a male body.

I would not dare to comment on female masturbation because how could I know anything about it?
Jhana4 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote: The alternative methods offered by Theravada are to either cultivate disgust or disenchantment for sex. That works for monks and nuns. That doesn't work well for a lay person who hopes to have a relationship someday.
Of course does it work for lay persons.
If there is fear of losing interest in sexual relationships then that is an instance of dukkha (fear) supporting dukkha (lust).
Kind regards
Most relationships will not last ( or start ) if one partner has cultivated a disgust or a detachment for sex. The original poster hopes to have a relationship with the right person someday.
The intention to have relationship here and lust there and vice versa. If there is this then there is that.
Who complains about what? :shrug:

Let's take the perspective that the suffering of lust may be an opportunity for the OP! There may be better things in life than having it dominated by desire and sexual relationship(s). I dare say so.

The OP asked for advice and one advice referred him to the effective method is which contemplating the disenchanting aspects of the body (that of others but also one's own). It is a straightforward method directed to the root of lust which is opposing thought and volition.

Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by mikenz66 »

TMingyur wrote: The OP asked for advice and one advice referrred him to the effective method is which contemplating the disenchanting aspects of the body (one own and that of others). It is a straightforward method directed to the root of lust which is opposing thought and volition.
The word "disenchantment" is probably a good one to use here. I don't think the idea is to become "disgusted" with the body (or other bodies). More to the point is to recognise that bodies are rather mundane things, and it's not necessary to chase after them...

I have found that just scanning repeatedly through the outer parts of my body ("Head hair, body hair, nails, skin, teeth") a few times helps me to "calm down" quite effectively (and have found no need to have to remember how to go through the rest of the body parts...). All that stuff becomes "just a body" and thoughts of attractiveness of other bodies tend to evaporate, not through "disgust" but more through the realisation that they are just hair/skin/teeth as well...

I should add that I am not celibate. But I find that these techniques are useful "relief" at times where acting out desires would be inappropriate or impractical...

:anjali:
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

Dear Ming,
TMingyur wrote: If it is done detached, not mentally involved, not phantasizing, renouncing any sensual pleasure, like kind of defecating or a surgical operation then masturbation may not be feeding sexual lust.
They tend to be a package deal, sexual stimulation and craving, always appearing together.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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ground
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by ground »

Ben wrote:Dear Ming,
TMingyur wrote: If it is done detached, not mentally involved, not phantasizing, renouncing any sensual pleasure, like kind of defecating or a surgical operation then masturbation may not be feeding sexual lust.
They tend to be a package deal, sexual stimulation and craving, always appearing together.
kind regards,

Ben
I have been referring to masturbation as detached merely physical activity to get rid of accumulated semen which may be one decisive factor for instances of lust to occur. Not sure about the definiteness of scientific research in this area.

As I see it the expression "They tend" leaves open other possibilities. Dominance of this tendency may occur if there is involvement in the sphere of mental agitation, involvement in the sphere of "being overwhelmed" by lust.

I am refraining from objectivying what is utter individual experience and I am not making general claims holding these to be valid for the experience of all male human beings. Therefore I have written "may not" which to my knowledge implies a possibility, not an absolute claim.

Assuming that the accumulation of semen is a contributing parameter to occurences of lust
I would like to mention the phenomenon that emmission of semen does not only occur exclusively in the sphere of "sexual stimulation and craving", i.e. in the sphere of mentally grasping involvement (be it in the wake state or in dream). It may e.g. also occur in the case of parapalegics where there is no neural link between the mentality located in the brain and bodily function of genital organs. There may also be "stimulation" but it happens as mere physical kind of shunt in peripheral neuronal circuit. This shows that there is not necessarily craving involved and the stimulation is not necessarily "sexual" in its conventional meaning.


Kind regards
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

Greetings Ming,

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate it.
Leaving aside those people who have no neural link and ejaculate without sensation, and ariyas, I stand by what I said earlier.
If anyone thinks that they can masturbate without craving, then my personal opinion is that I believe they are mistaken.
Anywy, I think we might be drifting into the off-topic...
:focus:
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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ground
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by ground »

Ben wrote:If anyone thinks that they can masturbate without craving, then my personal opinion is that I believe they are mistaken.
I mentioned this as a theoretical prerequisite in the sphere of male bodies in response to jhana's general claim that masturbation does not feed recurrence of lust (in the course of which he/she did not even specify the gender this claim refers to).
I would like to add "Don't try this at home" but to be on the save side follow the Buddha's advice to contemplate the disenchanting aspects of bodies, be mindful of your thoughts and the objects you direct your senses to and modify your diet.


Kind regards
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

Thanks again Ming for your clarification.
And for the record, jhana4 is a male.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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manas
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by manas »

Hi rb3
well I'm glad there is someone who understands what it was like for me, when I was your age. (I'm sorry it had to be you, of course!) but joking aside...assuming that you are not planning to become a monk in the near future, I just can't see why you don't do what most single blokes do if they live alone, with no girlfriend, when the urge becomes intolerable - give 'madame palm and her five lovely handmaidens' a call. No charge, no expense, no worries. :tongue:

I'm joking about it because you really don't have a serious problem. You are just what is called a 'normal 25 year old man'. Lust is stronger when we are young, and very, very gradually tends to ease a bit with age and experience.

I look at it this way: do what causes the least harm, given the current situation. For some it would be, date and meet more women and get a girlfriend. For some, masturbate as much as is needed to not go and do something worse (like abandon a promise to oneself by visiting to a massage parlour...) For some (like myself) it is currently, trying to let go of masturbation (but not feeling too much guilt about it if it happens). And yes, for some the meditation on the loathsomness of the body is appropriate, accompanied by strict celibacy (not easy to maintain as a layperson...I've tried it). Whichever one you pick, choose one that is realistic, and that won't drive you nuts. Minimize harm...we might not be able to eliminate, but we can minimize...

By the way, our mindfulness doesn't have to go out the window (should we decide to) do self-pleasuring. We can always maintain a measure of sati-sampajanna, even during that particular act...I won't go into details as this is a Buddhist forum, but know the vedanas as they arise and pass away...witness your own craving, and see how it also changes over the session...even doing something that isn't strictly speaking very wholesome, we can still learn something, I've found.

:namaste:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

Masturbation as meditation.
Now I think I have seen it all...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by DarwidHalim »

rb3 wrote:Hi there,

I'm a Buddhist who have been out of practice for a couple of years. I'm currently single, 25, and facing huge difficulties in controlling my lust. I used to visit erotic massage parlors to get a quick relief of which I've felt tremendous guilt after the act of done. I've made a vow to the Lord Buddha that I'll never visit these unwholesome outlets again and I've managed to stay true to my vows for 5 months. However, my urges are acting up on me again and the temptation to visit these places are overwhelming. I really need help on this. Is there a more skillful way to overcome these urges? I've tried practicing meditation and I hope it would really help.

Would really appreciate advice from serious practicing Buddhists.

PS: Please don't advice me to get a Girlfriend. I don't want to rush in a relationship, and prefer to wait for the right person to enter into my life. Nor do I feel its moral to get into a relationship in order to satisfy my lustful needs.

Thank you so much.
Why you don't make use of your lust to burn your lust?

Human beings are born in desire realm. They are full of desire 24/7. If you can make use of it, you can imagine the impact of this transformation.

SOme people see anger as a hindrance and try to eliminate it. THey look at it as a source of suffering and slowly get rid of anger.

However, some people see anger not as a hindrance, but as a diamond. They make use of this anger and transform that anger into the mindfulness and finally see their illusory nature.

Similarly, we can also use our lust as a diamond to finally burn the lust and see their illusory.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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manas
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by manas »

Ben wrote:Masturbation as meditation.
Now I think I have seen it all...
Um I did not quite mean it like that...lol

I just think that between doing it with no awareness, and doing it with awareness, that with a measure of awareness is the better way to go...would you believe that a monk once advised me to investigate, 'who is it that has the orgasm?', so I do have some saintly back-up here...of course abstinence is always the best of options...

Anyway, I can report that remaining aware can, on occassion, lead to one actually stopping the whole process before, um, things have gone too far... ( :broke: ) if one can have the insight in time, "what am I doing? do I really want to dull tomorrow morning's meditation session for the sake of ten seconds of pleasure? It's not too late to stop, reflect on what is really inside the body of the woman you are fantasizing about, and draw the energy back up into the body..." Cos I've found that it is losing the semen that is the worst aspect of this thing. Takes the edge off the sword of sati-sampajanna (the next morning), I've found.

:namaste:
Last edited by manas on Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Jhana4
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Jhana4 »

I think religions ( and the people on this board......no offense meant ) make too much of this issue. The original poster wanted to stop exploiting women by going to massage parlors and wanted to wait to have sex until he met someone he would like to be in a relationship with. Masturbating would free him from that problem without harming anyone. Nobody is worried for his spirituality by earning money or doing 100 things each of us probably do everyday that is outside of the circle described from monks in writings from 2600 years ago.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
rb3
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by rb3 »

Hi everyone!

Thank you so much for your advice and motivation. I went for a little jog this morning, and feel so much refreshed and clear headed now. I was penning this post out of frustration, because the lustful desire suddenly goes into high power mode, and suddenly my heart starts thumping rapidly and the burning urge to go visit these erotic parlors relapses. I'm glad that I've managed to keep these desires in check and I've managed to stay true to my promise. @manasikara, I really want to thank you specially for this post. It was very comforting to hear that you understand how I feel. I'm not too sure if you've ever encountered a problem as similar to mine, but I remembered the hellish days where I was ridden with guilt from visiting these parlors. I never imagined myself to do this, and yes, sexual addiction can be hell. Thank you for giving me the motivation, and not being judgmental on me. I guess the only solution out is to keep practicing, and cleansing my mind of defilements. And of course, I hope to meet a nice girl in the near future. :)
Last edited by rb3 on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

Hi manasikara,
On a Buddhist forum I personally don't think its a good idea to encourage, or be seen to encourage, an unwholesome activity. When one masturbates, its a choice one makes in dealing with chronic or acute lust. As a choice, its also an opportunity to develop equanimity and awareness as to what is going on. As I mentioned earlier, sexual stimulation and craving are so closely linked that they go together that any attempt of "mindful masturbation" is just a fantasy. In such a situation I would recommend one maintains one's sila and depending on the intensity of the lust, engage in vipassana (attendig to the usual object of meditation), samatha (observing the breath or some other usual object of meditation), or recollecting the qualities of triple gem. Mike also suggested an asubha practice of contemplating the parts of the body which I think would be very effective as well.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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