4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.

4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Sacha G » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:30 pm

Hi
The idea of this topic was given to me by Peter B.
Did the Buddha teach the 4 path 4 fruit model: Path of stream-entry, stream entry etc.
I tend to think he did, since this teaching is also found in the northern sutras.
At least, it seems highly probable to me that he did teach a difference between the putthujana, the Ariya and the Arahant.
What do u think?
:coffee:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com
Sacha G
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:16 pm
Location: France

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Zom » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:05 pm

You can dig a bit deeper: "Is Buddha just a pure old indian myth?" ,)

When people keep insisting on such theories, I usually ask them: Ok, what do you offer to do? What is the best and proper way to live then in your opinion? Live fast die young? No, thx. A wise person would use a "safe-bet" instead - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
User avatar
Zom
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby PeterB » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:06 pm

" given to you by PeterB " ?????

I will tell you what I think as you mention me.. :smile:
Those that see it as an essential foundation teaching of the Buddha will say so.
Those that do not will largely keep quiet because there is no point in debating it with those for whom it is a treasured belief..
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:15 pm

I am curious as to whether these hypothetical individuals who do not, have any basis for this view beyond a distaste for the concept.

But seriously, my implied annoyance towards PeterB aside, it could be an interesting subject to explore. I'm not particularly attached to this concept, but I haven't seen much to make me suspicious of it's validity at this point.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby ground » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:22 am

What is decisive is that he taught the four fruits.

Now if one travels from town A to town E and if the towns B, C, D will be passed while following the route connecting A and E then it follows that one may speak of "the route leading from A to B" and "the route leading from B to C" and "the route leading from C to D" and "the route leading from D to E".

There is nothing special about conventional speech, right?

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:29 am

Sacha G wrote:What do u think?


It would have been helpful, Sacha, to provide textual support for your contention.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16145
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Sacha G » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:46 pm

Hi Ben
Sorry but I don't really the point of quoting suttas about the 4path 4fruit model. One can find quotes easily in the 5 nikâyas.
The ball is rather in the camp of the sceptics... :stirthepot: (actually on this forum I met only one of them).
Sacha :coffee:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com
Sacha G
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:16 pm
Location: France

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby PeterB » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:08 pm

No ball. No camp.
Sacha I really dont care either way. Whether the Buddha did or did not teach the 4P model makes no difference to me at all..its all just words.
in reality I dont suppose it makes any difference to you either.


PS There is a (largish ) group of members who are agnostic about Rebirth so the existence of Ariya status would be fairly irrelevant to them too I would imagine. I havent heard any of them positing the Ariya concept in a one lifetime model. I might be wrong.
Dont assume that after a few weeks of membership you have encountered all shades of opinion.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Sacha G » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:37 pm

Hi Peter
Thank you for your reply. First a point of detail, I joined in 2010, so this doesn't make a few weeks.
Now more important: it's not because I heard only one person being sceptical of the Ariya model, that I meant there was only one. What I mean is what I said: I "heard" (or "read") just one person.
Secondly, to me, the Ariya model is (almost) completely detached of the kamma/rebirth model. Why? Because the definition in terms of number of lives remaining doesn't seem to be important.
So what is important? The difference of attitude and of perception between an Ariya and a Putthujana. And what does it consist of? That an ariya (tends not to) react with anger or desire, when a painful or a pleasant feeling arises in him. And that he (or she) doesn't identify with the body or the mind.
So, in conclusion, I'd like to read people here on this forum who could expose some solid arguments as to why this Ariya model arose after the Buddha"s parinibbâna. But I suppose I can see what you would answer: that those people, who are "sceptic" towards it, don't want to spend their time on arguing on minor points. :popcorn:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com
Sacha G
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:16 pm
Location: France

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:35 pm

User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10389
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:55 am

Greetings,

Does anyone happen to know if that table venerable Dhammanando presented once, with the different levels and the different fetters broken at each, is still available online?

That may be a more useful initial frame of reference than the "timeframes to arahantship" angle?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14674
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:09 am

Does anyone happen to know if that table venerable Dhammanando presented once, with the different levels and the different fetters broken at each, is still available online?
This?:


1) The sotapanna has abandoned the first three of the lower fetters: personality view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and vows. (Ratanasutta Sn. 233)

2) He is freed from the possibility of rebirth in the four lower realms. (Ratanasutta Sn. 234)

3) He is incapable of concealing any bodily, verbal or mental transgression. (Ratanasutta Sn. 235)

4) He has abandoned any lust, hate or delusion that would be strong enough to cause rebirth in the lower realms. (Abhabba Sutta AN. iii. 438)

5) He is incapable of nine actions: treating any sa?khara as permanent, treating any sa?khara as pleasurable, treating any dhamma as self, killing his mother, father or an arahant, causing bleeding in a Tathagata with evil intent, splitting the Sa?gha, or going over to another teacher. (Bahudhatuka Sutta MN. 115)

6) He is incapable of living without reverence for the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, and the training. Nor can he embrace any of the 62 wrong views or take an eighth birth. (Pa?hama-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 438-9)

7) He is incapable of seeking outside the Sangha for persons worthy of gifts. (Dutiya-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 439)

8) He cannot fall into the six wrong views that pleasure and pain are self-wrought, or wrought by another, or wrought by both oneself and another, or arise by chance without any act by self, or arise by chance without any act by another, or arise by chance without any act by either self or another. "For the one attained to right view sees well both causes and dhammas that are causally arisen." (Catuttha-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 440)

9) He is fixed unshakeably in the True Dhamma, is incapable of backsliding (to being a worlding), his future dukkha is finite, he has attained to knowledge not common to worldlings, cause and causally arisen dhammas are seen rightly by him.
(Anisa?sa Sutta AN. iii. 441)

10) He possesses unshakable confidence in the Three Jewels and the unbroken virtue that is pleasing to ariyans (numerous Suttas)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19562
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:46 am

Hi Retro,
If memory serves me well that table is also in the Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma but my copy is not proximate to me.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16145
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:53 am

Greetings,

Found it...

Image

Source: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=170&start=0#p1128

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14674
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:47 am

Yes, that's a nice summary. See also CMA and
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ya-puggala

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10389
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:30 am

Greetings,

Something that may be of interest... we know it was common for the Buddha to take and re-shape ideas and notions that were prevalent at the own time. It's quite possible that the fourfold ariyan Sangha, was a responses to the fourfold ariya found in classical Rigveda thought.

"A stanza in [the Purusa Sukta of the Rig Veda] says that when the Cosmic person (Purusa) was sacrificed his mouth became the Brahamana, his arms the Rajanya (i.e. Ksatriya) his thighs the vaisya, and from his feet were produced the sudras and these were the four social grade of the Aryan society of the time" (Source: Dr. Dharmasena Hettiarachchi's "Buddhist Economic Philosophy as Reflected in Early Buddhism", p99)

It's worth noting that the ariyan model of the Rig Veda involved delineation between ariya and non-ariya as a direct consequence of divine creation, whereas in the Buddha's schema, the delineation between ariya and non-ariya is dependent on one's own actions, effort and wisdom.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14674
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby Sacha G » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:03 pm

Hi Retrofuturist.
This is more than interesting and original.
Did you find it on your own or did you read it somewhere?
:clap:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com
Sacha G
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:16 pm
Location: France

Re: 4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:25 pm

Greetings Sacha,

Sacha G wrote:Did you find it on your own or did you read it somewhere?

I read the different systems compared in that book I referenced above, but as for the observation that the two models each have exactly four levels, that was something I discerned.

Of the Buddha's levels, I've often found the distinction between a stream-entrant and once-returner to be a bit forced (since, as per the diagram above, no new fetters are broken for the once-returner) but if such a distinction was required in order to bring the total count up to four, in order to correlate with the Rig Veda model, it seems a reasonable enough way to do it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14674
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Return to Early Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests