masturbation what's wrong?

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rb3
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by rb3 »

Hi Ben,

thank you for your reply. I understand it might not be appropriate to encourage masturbation on a Buddhist forum. But if I may speak a little for manasikara, I think I understand where he's coming from. I once asked a reputable Buddhist monk, on a meditation retreat, on my troubles in trying to quit masturbation. Yes, I was that serious in practice at that time and thought masturbation was a hindrance to my practice. His advice to me was there was no need, nor did he encouraged me to quit masturbation, unless I was ordained in the Sangha. He said lust by itself was a fire that was very hard to curb, especially for a layperson. He told me that to keep practicing and if the lust becomes unbearable, that masturbation would be an appropriate relief. I understand the benefits from practicing on meditating on the unwholesome aspects of the body, but I don't think thats very suitable for a typical layperson. Especially if the person has not made celibacy a goal. In fact, to really practice on that, I've read it was necessary to go into one of those open burial spots to witness the actual decomposition process. That is something that is not easy to accomplish and I think one needs to have a good mentor/meditation teacher for guidance.

Just my 2 cents.
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

rb3 wrote:His advice to me was there was no need, nor did he encouraged me to quit masturbation, unless I was ordained in the Sangha. He said lust by itself was a fire that was very hard to curb, especially for a layperson. He told me that to keep practicing and if the lust becomes unbearable, that masturbation would be an appropriate relief.
REALLY? He said that?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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rowyourboat
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by rowyourboat »

I agree that anything that increases craving cannot be publicly endorsed, but...
4. Corassuttaü Ý Highwaymen

009.04. Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with eight things does not do it long, ends up quickly. What eight?

Attacks those who should not be attacked, takes away without leaving anything, kills women, defiles maidens, plunders the gone forth, plunders the royal treasury, steals in the vicinity and does not have a saving Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with these eight things does not do it long, ends up quickly.

Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with eight things does it long, does not end up quickly. What eight?

Does not attack those who should not be attacked, does not take away without leaving anything, does not kill women, does not defile maidens, does not plunder the gone forth, does not plunder the royal treasury, does not steal in the vicinity and has a saving Bhikkhus, the highwaymen endowed with these eight things does it long, does not end up quickly.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html

We all know the path is a gradual one. The highwayman may not be able to give up killing right away and any such instruction telling him to do that is likely to be of no benefit to him. Better for him to take the next step down, rather than the next 8th step down. It is a form of kusala IMHO.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

rowyourboat wrote:We all know the path is a gradual one. The highwayman may not be able to give up killing right away and any such instruction telling him to do that is likely to be of no benefit to him.
This is just bizarre, Matheesha.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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kirk5a
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by kirk5a »

rowyourboat wrote:We all know the path is a gradual one. The highwayman may not be able to give up killing right away and any such instruction telling him to do that is likely to be of no benefit to him. Better for him to take the next step down, rather than the next 8th step down. It is a form of kusala IMHO.
There is no way that is what that sutta means. You're getting that interpretation from "does not do it long, ends up quickly." ?? The translation is unclear, for starters, but it sounds more to me like it is suggesting the highwayman will simply be unable to perpetuate such behavior. Probably because he'll end up dead or in prison.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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manas
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by manas »

I can't write much as I'm having a difficult day today. Also I might sound like I'm countering Ben here, who has often been very helpful to me, and I don't want to do that, either. (Ben - hope you realize that).

I thought I was pretty clear that we should choose the best option that is possible. Ok...1. ordain as a monk. if we can't do that: 2. practice asubha meditation and celibacy as a layperson. if we can't do that: 3. get a girlfriend, and at least have a loving relationship, with sex in the context of affection. if we can't do that...4. masturbate to let off some of the steam... and so on. I know what the ideals are, and I have tried them. But I also know what can happen when we overreach, and push too hard.

I really meant well...I had better get out of this topic, but I just hope that everyone can see that I do agree with what is in the suttas, I'm just trying to be practical in the issue of trying to help someone stay balanced, and on the raft of the Buddha Dhamma. If I had of been a bit less idealistic, and a bit less hard on myself, when I was his age, I would not have come and gone (from the Dhamma) as often as I did, practicing hard, then having a break, then coming back...etc etc. Steadiness and long-term daily practice beats short intense bursts of effort, IME.

:namaste:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ben
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Ben »

manasikara wrote:I really meant well...
I know you do, manasikara. You have nothing to worry about nor apologise for.
And I apologise if I appeared to be admonishign you in any way.
with Metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
rowyourboat
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Ben, kirk

The Buddha in the sutta is not endorsing stealing, just saying that stealing minus the other bits is somewhat better for the robber. I wonder if there was a highwayman in the audience or whether he was just using this as a simile. Either way, this is just my opinion; which might not be correct in all situations. I guess there might be some highwaymen who stop killing when you tell them to do that.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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manas
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by manas »

Ben wrote:
manasikara wrote:I really meant well...
I know you do, manasikara. You have nothing to worry about nor apologise for.
And I apologise if I appeared to be admonishign you in any way.
with Metta,

Ben
I appreciate that clarification, Ben. Actually I am working on being able to better take admonishment, anyway...if you see me heading in the wrong direction, let me know. Dhamma friends are supposed to do that, anyway! But I must admit that in this particular instance (and how I wish I had known this myself years back), sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils, so that we are at least heading in the right direction, ie away from the most harmful, and towards the less harmful. I hope that makes Dhammic sense!

:namaste:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Pondera
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Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Post by Pondera »

Before I give you my two cents on the troubles of masturbation, here's a question. Did the Buddha ever have anything to say specifically on masturbation? The answer is yes. Well. I've looked for it everywhere for the sutta, but I can't find the one I'm looking for. Anyhow. You'll have to trust me on this one.

A monk came to the Buddha and asked, though it was forbidden, if he could be allowed to do this dirty deed in his own time, because his skin turned a disgusting tone of yellow if he didn't masturbate frequently, and somehow it was established that the skin discoloration was definitely due to not masturbating. So, he wasn't just making the story up in order to knock one off on his own spare time. He really had a medical reaction to the build up of semen in his system. It's actually a myth that men should regularly empty their bodies of semen. It's an excuse that justifies the act, and I don't have anything to say about the thing as if it were some morally objective evil, though it may sound like I'm marking it that way. The fact is masturbating is like spending your money at the race track. Gambling is stupid. Save your money for a rainy day. By money I mean testosterone. Build it up. Back to the Buddha.

The Buddha allowed this monk, in this extreme case where the monk's skin was turning horrible colors of yellow that just weren't healthy, to go ahead and masturbate on his own free time. So, what ended up happening was that all of the other monks basically made a laugh out of him because whenever this other monk would eat from his bowl, they would ask him what other "various" things he did with that hand.

The point I wish I could make is that there isn't an excuse for masturbation. Yes, people get "addicted" to it and now there's a three letter acronym for compulsive incurable masturbation disorder. I'm sure the pharmaceutical companies have medications that help the poor suffering teenagers of this world deal with what is an becoming a very large and varied amount of free pornography; the growth and affect of which is "out of their hands", so to speak.

Okay. Fair enough. Never in the history of the world has there ever been a time like now when it is incredibly easy to find pictures of naked women.

But for all the excuses why you can't help your self, there is a very good reason why you should not masturbate and it has nothing to do with the fact that God might always be watching you.

The number one reason why a man of age 25 shouldn't masturbate (much less pay for sexual gratification) is the loss of testosterone.

Here's what happens if you manage a whole year without spilling a drop. Testosterone levels increase. Those levels will literally attract the mate you are meant to be with (assuming you're a heterosexual male). A years worth of testosterone built up in your body is the proportional equivalent of a pheromone release that will cover half the globe.

And this won't attract all the women you could dream of. This will attract the woman who was meant for you. You're pheromones encode, like the urine of a dog, all the information that the opposite sex needs and wants in order to decide if you are right for them. And since your pheromones are now mixing all over the globe, if there is a girl out there for you she will be "attracted" to you, like gravity, every time. But if you masturbate, forget about it. You will never meet her. You're life at 28 will be useless and unfulfilled.

At 25 you will thank your self at 28 that for that whole year that you took cold showers or roughly slapped your self in the face on a regular basis just to keep the thought of masturbation out, because when you have met the girl in your life which will make the rest of your life worth living, you have essentially accomplished a very good thing. Then get married and do what the villagers do, in the villagers way, so they call it.

So slap your self silly -in the face. It's called "chastising". It's funny, but the mental desire for pleasure can vanish very quickly from ones mind when it is welcomed with swift physical discomfort. I suppose that is the basis for the whole philosophy of extreme asceticism.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ben
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Post by Ben »

Pondera wrote:Well. I've looked for it everywhere for the sutta, but I can't find the one I'm looking for.
Given what you've provided above, I'd say it doesn't exist. Its best not to put words in the mouth of the Buddha, Pondera, as you misrepresent the Dhamma.

EDIT:
Intentionally causing oneself to emit semen, or getting someone else to cause one to emit semen — except during a dream — is a saṅghādisesa offense. (Sg 1)
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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manas
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by manas »

Hi pondera,
masturbation is a problem, yes. But even more of a problem is worry, and perfectionism, IMHO. And in the Dhamma, a calm mind capable of insight is more important than a perfectly healthy body, good testosterone levels, or even a dream partner. (Unless you can find me one that will never, ever deteriorate and age...)

:namaste:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
daverupa
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Post by daverupa »

Pondera wrote:You'll have to trust me on this one... A years worth of testosterone built up in your body is the proportional equivalent of a pheromone release that will cover half the globe... This will attract the woman who was meant for you. You're pheromones encode... And since your pheromones are now mixing all over the globe, if there is a girl out there for you she will be "attracted" to you, like gravity, every time...
What a ridiculous pile of pseudo-factual trash. I can think of no other way to sum up what has been presented, above.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Zom
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by Zom »

Manasikara's adivce is worth listening to (in my opinion). So I agree totally.

I've been practising quite seriously for 5 years (actually from the very first day I discovered Dhamma). And I'm still married (since 2002), I have a wife and daughter. And "as I know and see it", up till now, even living in a family, I managed to decrease lust a lot through constant practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. I had numerous sensual attachments, including sexual, and I weakened them much. So I can even make a small lion roar like "Yea, it really works!!". :tongue:

But one thing I would add about getting rid of addiction to sexual things... Once lust will occupy your mind - observe it carefully, and do this in such a way, so you see extreme suffering in it (and indeed, it is really painful, this sexual lust). Then do whatever you want to have a relief (of course, in the frames of 5 precepts). Time will come, and your mind will incline to sexual things less and less and less - because it will instinctly know that this is suffering-suffering-suffering. These are not just words or some bare ideas - this is my actual experience. And that's why, for example, right now at the present moment, I feel it easy to keep 8 precepts for, lets say, 2-3 months continuously. Five years ago I would be 100% sure that this is just an impossibility. But as it turned out - The Blessed One was right - once again.. :tongue:

Ow, and one more thing - if you are going to find a girlfriend, then there might be a problem for you to practise "fading away of lust" simply because your girl won't understand it ,) So the only options here are: 1) find a Dhamma-practising girl, or at least a wise one (hard to find, indeed) 2) drop this idea to find a girl 8-)
unspoken
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Post by unspoken »

Hmmm. I do have the same problem. But I found out actually every time when I am feeling tired and sleepy, all these urges coming to attack me. Is it the hindrance that actually come together? Whenever I feel like sloppy and drowsy, immediately the sexual thoughts arises.
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