4 Path model: taught by the Buddha?

[Sacha G]

Hi
The idea of this topic was given to me by Peter B.
Did the Buddha teach the 4 path 4 fruit model: Path of stream-entry, stream entry etc.
I tend to think he did, since this teaching is also found in the northern sutras.
At least, it seems highly probable to me that he did teach a difference between the putthujana, the Ariya and the Arahant.
What do u think?

[Zom]

You can dig a bit deeper: "Is Buddha just a pure old indian myth?" ,)

When people keep insisting on such theories, I usually ask them: Ok, what do you offer to do? What is the best and proper way to live then in your opinion? Live fast die young? No, thx. A wise person would use a "safe-bet" instead - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[PeterB]

" given to you by PeterB " ?????

I will tell you what I think as you mention me..
Those that see it as an essential foundation teaching of the Buddha will say so.
Those that do not will largely keep quiet because there is no point in debating it with those for whom it is a treasured belief..

[Kenshou]

I am curious as to whether these hypothetical individuals who do not, have any basis for this view beyond a distaste for the concept.

But seriously, my implied annoyance towards PeterB aside, it could be an interesting subject to explore. I'm not particularly attached to this concept, but I haven't seen much to make me suspicious of it's validity at this point.

[ground]

What is decisive is that he taught the four fruits.

Now if one travels from town A to town E and if the towns B, C, D will be passed while following the route connecting A and E then it follows that one may speak of "the route leading from A to B" and "the route leading from B to C" and "the route leading from C to D" and "the route leading from D to E".

There is nothing special about conventional speech, right?

Kind regards

[Ben]

What do u think?

It would have been helpful, Sacha, to provide textual support for your contention.
kind regards,

Ben

[Sacha G]

Hi Ben
Sorry but I don't really the point of quoting suttas about the 4path 4fruit model. One can find quotes easily in the 5 nikâyas.
The ball is rather in the camp of the sceptics... (actually on this forum I met only one of them).
Sacha

[PeterB]

No ball. No camp.
Sacha I really dont care either way. Whether the Buddha did or did not teach the 4P model makes no difference to me at all..its all just words.
in reality I dont suppose it makes any difference to you either.


PS There is a (largish ) group of members who are agnostic about Rebirth so the existence of Ariya status would be fairly irrelevant to them too I would imagine. I havent heard any of them positing the Ariya concept in a one lifetime model. I might be wrong.
Dont assume that after a few weeks of membership you have encountered all shades of opinion.

[Sacha G]

Hi Peter
Thank you for your reply. First a point of detail, I joined in 2010, so this doesn't make a few weeks.
Now more important: it's not because I heard only one person being sceptical of the Ariya model, that I meant there was only one. What I mean is what I said: I "heard" (or "read") just one person.
Secondly, to me, the Ariya model is (almost) completely detached of the kamma/rebirth model. Why? Because the definition in terms of number of lives remaining doesn't seem to be important.
So what is important? The difference of attitude and of perception between an Ariya and a Putthujana. And what does it consist of? That an ariya (tends not to) react with anger or desire, when a painful or a pleasant feeling arises in him. And that he (or she) doesn't identify with the body or the mind.
So, in conclusion, I'd like to read people here on this forum who could expose some solid arguments as to why this Ariya model arose after the Buddha"s parinibbâna. But I suppose I can see what you would answer: that those people, who are "sceptic" towards it, don't want to spend their time on arguing on minor points.

[mikenz66]

Hi Sacha,

Here are some suttas that spell out different levels:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .kuma.html
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh048-u.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ta-e1.html


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Does anyone happen to know if that table venerable Dhammanando presented once, with the different levels and the different fetters broken at each, is still available online?

That may be a more useful initial frame of reference than the "timeframes to arahantship" angle?

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Does anyone happen to know if that table venerable Dhammanando presented once, with the different levels and the different fetters broken at each, is still available online?

This?:

1) The sotapanna has abandoned the first three of the lower fetters: personality view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and vows. (Ratanasutta Sn. 233)

2) He is freed from the possibility of rebirth in the four lower realms. (Ratanasutta Sn. 234)

3) He is incapable of concealing any bodily, verbal or mental transgression. (Ratanasutta Sn. 235)

4) He has abandoned any lust, hate or delusion that would be strong enough to cause rebirth in the lower realms. (Abhabba Sutta AN. iii. 438)

5) He is incapable of nine actions: treating any sa?khara as permanent, treating any sa?khara as pleasurable, treating any dhamma as self, killing his mother, father or an arahant, causing bleeding in a Tathagata with evil intent, splitting the Sa?gha, or going over to another teacher. (Bahudhatuka Sutta MN. 115)

6) He is incapable of living without reverence for the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, and the training. Nor can he embrace any of the 62 wrong views or take an eighth birth. (Pa?hama-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 438-9)

7) He is incapable of seeking outside the Sangha for persons worthy of gifts. (Dutiya-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 439)

8) He cannot fall into the six wrong views that pleasure and pain are self-wrought, or wrought by another, or wrought by both oneself and another, or arise by chance without any act by self, or arise by chance without any act by another, or arise by chance without any act by either self or another. "For the one attained to right view sees well both causes and dhammas that are causally arisen." (Catuttha-abhabba??hana Sutta AN. iii. 440)

9) He is fixed unshakeably in the True Dhamma, is incapable of backsliding (to being a worlding), his future dukkha is finite, he has attained to knowledge not common to worldlings, cause and causally arisen dhammas are seen rightly by him.
(Anisa?sa Sutta AN. iii. 441)

10) He possesses unshakable confidence in the Three Jewels and the unbroken virtue that is pleasing to ariyans (numerous Suttas)

[Ben]

Hi Retro,
If memory serves me well that table is also in the Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma but my copy is not proximate to me.
kind regards,

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Found it...



Source: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=170&start=0#p1128

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Yes, that's a nice summary. See also CMA and
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ya-puggala


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Something that may be of interest... we know it was common for the Buddha to take and re-shape ideas and notions that were prevalent at the own time. It's quite possible that the fourfold ariyan Sangha, was a responses to the fourfold ariya found in classical Rigveda thought.

"A stanza in [the Purusa Sukta of the Rig Veda] says that when the Cosmic person (Purusa) was sacrificed his mouth became the Brahamana, his arms the Rajanya (i.e. Ksatriya) his thighs the vaisya, and from his feet were produced the sudras and these were the four social grade of the Aryan society of the time" (Source: Dr. Dharmasena Hettiarachchi's "Buddhist Economic Philosophy as Reflected in Early Buddhism", p99)

It's worth noting that the ariyan model of the Rig Veda involved delineation between ariya and non-ariya as a direct consequence of divine creation, whereas in the Buddha's schema, the delineation between ariya and non-ariya is dependent on one's own actions, effort and wisdom.

Metta,
Retro.

[Sacha G]

Hi Retrofuturist.
This is more than interesting and original.
Did you find it on your own or did you read it somewhere?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sacha,

Did you find it on your own or did you read it somewhere?

I read the different systems compared in that book I referenced above, but as for the observation that the two models each have exactly four levels, that was something I discerned.

Of the Buddha's levels, I've often found the distinction between a stream-entrant and once-returner to be a bit forced (since, as per the diagram above, no new fetters are broken for the once-returner) but if such a distinction was required in order to bring the total count up to four, in order to correlate with the Rig Veda model, it seems a reasonable enough way to do it.

Metta,
Retro.