The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dmytro,

Thank you, and well said.

(A couple of choice quotes relating to the instruction, retrieved from your topic for those following this discussion)
SN 3.157 wrote:It is by seeing: “Such is body; such is the arising of body; such is the ceasing of body. Such is feeling; such is the arising of feeling; such is the ceasing of feeling. Such is perception; such is the arising of perception; such is the ceasing of perception. Such are activities; such is the arising of activities; such is the ceasing of activities. Such is consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness; such is the ceasing of consciousness.

Even thus practised and enlarged, brethren, does the perceiving of impermanence wear out all sensual lust, all lust for body, all desire for rebirth, wears out all ignorance, tears out all conceit of “I am”.
MN 146 wrote:"Sisters, there are these seven factors for awakening through whose development & pursuit a monk enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for himself right in the here & now. Which seven? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening ... persistence as a factor for awakening ... rapture as a factor for awakening ... serenity as a factor for awakening ... concentration as a factor for awakening ... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. These are the seven factors for awakening through whose development & pursuit a monk enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for himself right in the here & now."
To borrow my words from 2009, "There's a certain active conceptual component to saññā which may be under-represented if the more standard rendering of 'perception' isn't clearly differentiated from consciousness."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Wheel the clock waaay back and tell me how this practice was done, even during the time of the Buddha.
Wheel the topic back to the original post and the Buddha (of the Sutta Pitaka) will tell you himself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Even during the time of the Buddha, once the Sangha got too large for any monastic to have frequent (or any) direct contact with the Buddha, if that monastic (or lay person) wanted to work with a particular teaching he or she heard, that would mean that that monastic would have work with an individual who knew the teaching, which would mean taking the time with that individual to memorize it (a vital part of the study and practice), which would mean that individual would explain the terminology and structure of the text to our monastic, which would mean that individual would answer questions about that text, which would mean that individual would also recite other texts to our monastic that would further illuminate the text in question as part of the study of that text, which would mean that that individual would give guidance on how to put it into practice or direct our monastic to an experienced kalyāṇa-mittatā who would help our monastic in that manner, which would mean that our monastic was working with a teacher or teachers. It was the way the monastic Sangha was structured, and more or less continues to be structured.

As for "in some of the modern Vipassanā texts where it's said that a student shouldn't learn the "stages of insight" prior to recognizing them on the sitting mat," the Burmese vipassana methods were developed for the most the laity who would not have the time or the resources for that sort of study. Also, knowing the "stages of insight" before hand is hardly necessary to experience them, and all of this was, or should be, done under the guidance of an experienced and knowledgeable teacher who would, then, explains things to the student as they were experienced. The nice thing about that is that there is not all this preoccupation with trying to get to this or that experience. Things are explained to the student a they progress, and the explanation is in terms of their actual experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Even during the time of the Buddha, once the Sangha got too large for any monastic to have frequent (or any) direct contact with the Buddha, if that monastic (or lay person) wanted to work with a particular teaching he or she heard, that would mean that that monastic would have work with an individual who knew the teaching, which would mean taking the time with that individual to memorize it (a vital part of the study and practice), which would mean that individual would explain the terminology and structure of the text to our monastic, which would mean that individual would answer questions about that text, which would mean that individual would also recite other texts to our monastic that would further illuminate the text in question as part of the study of that text, which would mean that that individual would give guidance on how to put it into practice or direct our monastic to an experienced kalyāṇa-mittatā who would help our monastic in that manner, which would mean that our monastic was working with a teacher or teachers. It was the way the monastic Sangha was structured, and more or less continues to be structured.
Well let us proceed on that basis.

:candle:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

What is foundational to this: Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications, the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' Since to is foundational to the list, the question is what does mean, how is it done?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

What is explained in brief in the earlier sutta quotes is explained in detail at...

MN 148: Chachakka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole sutta is relevant (I guess that goes without saying), but if you want to get to the section specific to your question, scroll down to the part that says "Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification."

That the compilers of the Sutta Pitaka saw fit to mention that "while this explanation was being given, the hearts of 60 monks, through no clinging, were fully released from fermentation/effluents" is testament to the regard in which the instruction was held.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

What is explained in brief in the earlier sutta quotes is explained in detail at...

MN 148: Chachakka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole sutta is relevant (I guess that goes without saying), but if you want to get to the section specific to your question, scroll down to the part that says "Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification."
"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.
'One assumes? Sometimes I really do not like Ven T's translations at all. Ven B: "One regards the eye thus: 'This is not mine....""

But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

As for "remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications", I would suggest one achieves this by remaining focused on inconstancy in all fabrications. As far a direction goes on what to do, I do not see any need for anything separate, assuming one knows already how the Buddha explains anicca and sankhara - there is no deficiency in the sutta instruction.

In terms of how successful one actually is in maintaining this perception at any particular point in time, I expect that depends on the strength of the seven factors of enlightenment.

1. Mindfulness (sati)
2. Investigation (dhamma vicaya)
3. Energy (viriya)
4. Joy or rapture (pīti)
5. Relaxation or tranquility (passaddhi)
6. State of total equilibrium of the detached intellect (samādhi)
7. Equanimity (upekkha)

And in keeping with the spirit of sharing relevant instruction from the Sutta Pitaka...

SN 46.16: Gilana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Blessed One said: "O Cunda, let the factors of enlightenment occur to your mind."

"These seven factors of enlightenment, bhante (Ven. Sir), are well expounded and are cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana. What are the seven?

i. "Mindfulness, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One, and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

ii. "Investigation of the Dhamma, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iii. "Persevering effort, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iv. "Rapture, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

v. "Calm, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vi. "Concentration, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vii. "Equanimity, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One, and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

These seven factors of enlightenment, bhante, are well expounded and cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana."

"Most assuredly Cunda, they are factors of enlightenment. Most assuredly, Cunda, they are factors of enlightenment."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

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But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.
I think one way to do this is to not cling to the visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory, tactile, and mental expereince......when you see a cup don't fabricate the familiarity of that cup...better to fabricate the newness of that cup....better yet...don't fabricate "cup" at all.....instead just let sensation flow by....
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.
I think one way to do this is to not cling to the visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory, tactile, and mental expereince......when you see a cup don't fabricate the familiarity of that cup...better to fabricate the newness of that cup....better yet...don't fabricate "cup" at all.....instead just let sensation flow by....
chownah
Okay, but it really does not work to say to myself: "Don't cling, it is all anicca." One can do that but it is still conceptual stuff.

retro wrote:I do not see any need for anything separate, assuming one knows already how the Buddha explains anicca and sankhara - there is no deficiency in the sutta instruction.
Point me to a sutta instruction or two. Again, the perception of anicca is foundational to what you are talking about in the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.... Point me to a sutta instruction or two.
SN 22.102: Aniccasañña Sutta
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 2-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And how, bhikshus, is the perception of impermanence cultivated, how is it developed, so that
all sensual lust is exhausted; all lust for form is exhausted; all lust for existence is exhausted; all ignorance
is exhausted; all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed?

‘Such is form; such is the arising of form; such is the ending of form.
Such is feeling; such is the arising of feeling; such is the ending of feeling.
Such is perception; such is the arising of perception; such is the ending of perception.
Such are formations; such is the arising of formations; such is the ending of formations.
Such is consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness; such is the ending of consciousness.’

Bhikshus, this is how the perception of impermanence, when cultivated, when well developed,
all sensual lust is exhausted,
all lust for form is exhausted,
all lust for existence is exhausted,
all ignorance is exhausted;
all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed.”

...

Bhikshus, just as when a stalk of a bunch of mangoes has been cut, all the mangoes
attached to the stalk would follow it;
even so, bhikshus, when the perception of impermanence is cultivated and well developed, all sensual
lust is exhausted, all lust for form is exhausted, all lust for existence is exhausted, all ignorance is exhausted;
all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:
But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.
I think one way to do this is to not cling to the visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory, tactile, and mental expereince......when you see a cup don't fabricate the familiarity of that cup...better to fabricate the newness of that cup....better yet...don't fabricate "cup" at all.....instead just let sensation flow by....
chownah
Okay, but it really does not work to say to myself: "Don't cling, it is all anicca." One can do that but it is still conceptual stuff.
You're right about that. I'm wondering if actually you are asking what is the process for the penetrative understanding of impermanence......isn't "remaining focused on inconsistency in all fabrications" just a way of saying "continuously seeing impermanence clearly "? If this is so then I doubt that there will be a "process" that will accomplish this goal.....I guess that it would be achieved by meditating and developing insite which of course is described in its many form throughout the Buddha's teachings.......is this sort of like the "process" you are asking about or is it something else?
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.... Point me to a sutta instruction or two.
SN 22.102: Aniccasañña Sutta
And how, bhikshus, is the perception of impermanence cultivated, how is it developed, so that
all sensual lust is exhausted; all lust for form is exhausted; all lust for existence is exhausted; all ignorance
is exhausted; all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed?
‘Such is form; such is the arising of form; such is the ending of form. . . . .
The problem, however, with this text is that it seems to leave a fair amount unsaid, which for the trainee would likely be a bit more than confusing. It would seem that what is left unsaid would need to be filled in:
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. AN 4.94 PTS: A ii 93 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... .than.html
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

You're right about that. I'm wondering if actually you are asking what is the process for the penetrative understanding of impermanence......isn't "remaining focused on inconsistency in all fabrications" just a way of saying "continuously seeing impermanence clearly "? If this is so then I doubt that there will be a "process" that will accomplish this goal.....I guess that it would be achieved by meditating and developing insite which of course is described in its many form throughout the Buddha's teachings.......is this sort of like the "process" you are asking about or is it something else?
When I read texts such as this:

Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications

the perception of impermanence should be cultivated

And how, bhikshus, is the perception of impermanence cultivated … Such is form; such is the arising of form; such is the ending of form.


I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote: I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.
Or, perhaps, there are a number of practical ways of doing it and the differences between them have no Dhammic significance?

Certainly, the advice of essentially anyone I can think of: Sayadaw Mahasi, Goenka, Thich Nhat Hanh, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Maha Bua, Ajahn Sumedho, Bhante Gunaratana, Bhante Vimalaramsi, etc, etc, is perfectly compatible with those sutta quotes...

:anjali:
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Re: The Buddha's Guide to Mental Cultivation for Trainees

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.
Or, perhaps, there are a number of practical ways of doing it and the differences between them have no Dhammic significance?

Certainly, the advice of essentially anyone I can think of: Sayadaw Mahasi, Goenka, Thich Nhat Hanh, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Maha Bua, Ajahn Sumedho, Bhante Gunaratana, Bhante Vimalaramsi, etc, etc, is perfectly compatible with those sutta quotes...
Agreed, though there is one name I'd leave out of this list.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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