masturbation what's wrong?

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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:28 pm

Zom wrote:Manasikara's adivce is worth listening to (in my opinion). So I agree totally.

I've been practising quite seriously for 5 years (actually from the very first day I discovered Dhamma). And I'm still married (since 2002), I have a wife and daughter. And "as I know and see it", up till now, even living in a family, I managed to decrease lust a lot through constant practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. I had numerous sensual attachments, including sexual, and I weakened them much. So I can even make a small lion roar like "Yea, it really works!!". :tongue:

But one thing I would add about getting rid of addiction to sexual things... Once lust will occupy your mind - observe it carefully, and do this in such a way, so you see extreme suffering in it (and indeed, it is really painful, this sexual lust). Then do whatever you want to have a relief (of course, in the frames of 5 precepts). Time will come, and your mind will incline to sexual things less and less and less - because it will instinctly know that this is suffering-suffering-suffering. These are not just words or some bare ideas - this is my actual experience. And that's why, for example, right now at the present moment, I feel it easy to keep 8 precepts for, lets say, 2-3 months continuously. Five years ago I would be 100% sure that this is just an impossibility. But as it turned out - The Blessed One was right - once again.. :tongue:

Ow, and one more thing - if you are going to find a girlfriend, then there might be a problem for you to practise "fading away of lust" simply because your girl won't understand it ,) So the only options here are: 1) find a Dhamma-practising girl, or at least a wise one (hard to find, indeed) 2) drop this idea to find a girl 8-)


Hi Zom,

I hope this isn't an intrusive question -- but you mention being married, and I'm wondering if your wife is a "Dhamma-practicing girl"? How does she feel about your keeping the 8 precepts for two to three month intervals? If she objected to this practice, what would you do?

Also, do you feel that women are generally less "wise" than men? My own observation is that men like to blame their existential suffering on women, though the actual source of trouble is often our old friend, Reality. It seems to me this tendency exists in all the patriarchal religions, including Buddhism to a degree.

Best regards,

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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Zom » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:42 pm

I hope this isn't an intrusive question -- but you mention being married, and I'm wondering if your wife is a "Dhamma-practicing girl"? How does she feel about your keeping the 8 precepts for two to three month intervals? If she objected to this practice, what would you do?


Sure, there is no problem, I will answer -)

My kamma seems to good - because my wife is wise, she understands everything, and she too - according to her capabilites - practising to subdue passion, aversion, ignorance. So we live with her like (if using canonical quotation) "a milk with water" ,)

If she objected to this practice, what would you do?


This is not an easy question to answer. I don't know. Perhaps I would try to find some compromise - but in any case, if my wisdom would still increase and if I would feel a strong rejection towards sensual indulgence while she would keep insisting on that - may be I would leave a family. But, you know, as I found out, women are much less addicted to sex rather than men (generally). I even asked some women about this directly, I read essays with polls among women on this account and it seems that love relations, presents, tender words, romantic situations, different entertainments, are much more valued by women rather than just "bare sex". If you keep that in mind, you still may try to avoid permanent sexual acts.

Also, do you feel that women are generally less "wise" than men?


Hard to say. I know stupid men, I know stupid women. I know wise men, I know wise women. I can't speak about "total number" in some area, country, city.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:09 pm

Zom wrote:My kamma seems to good - because my wife is wise, she understands everything, and she too - according to her capabilites - practising to subdue passion, aversion, ignorance. So we live with her like (if using canonical quotation) "a milk with water" ,)


Thanks Zom. :)

Sounds like you have a harmonious situation there. Good luck with your practice!
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby santa100 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:44 pm

Unspoken wrote:
Hmmm. I do have the same problem. But I found out actually every time when I am feeling tired and sleepy, all these urges coming to attack me. Is it the hindrance that actually come together? Whenever I feel like sloppy and drowsy, immediately the sexual thoughts arises.


There're different kinds of tiredness. The ones result from exercises are the good ones because they don't give rise to sexual thoughts. If you put in ~ 1hr/1hr and a half jogging with lots of up-hill running, you'd got home with your legs turned into jello, but you still feel great because of the "runner's high" and you won't need any other kind of "high". Same thing with strenght training, if you train the muscle to the point of failure, you could barely lift your arms by the time you get home, but the released endorphin will stay around for some times. These are the good positive source of energy you want to maintain..
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby manas » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:43 pm

I have found this really helpful, too:

How does one guard the sense doors? Herein, a monk, having seen a form, does not seize upon its (delusive) appearance as a whole, nor on its details. If his sense of sight were uncontrolled, covetousness, grief and other evil, unwholesome states would flow into him. Therefore he practices for the sake of its control, he watches over the sense of sight, he enters upon its control. Having heard a sound... smelt an odor... tasted a taste... felt a touch... cognized a mental object, he does not seize upon its (delusive) appearance as a whole... he enters upon its control.

— SN 35:120


This implies that we have to maintain watchfulness all day, because as laypersons we are going to see and interact with many women through the day. So instead of letting our minds (as it is their habit to automatically do) immediately zero in on the particular aspects of the female form that we find most alluring - each will have their own - we restrain ourselves from that. It's like undoing a habit one has had since teenage years, but if we are serious about the practice, I guess we will have to bite the bullet and take it on - even if we have a girlfriend or a wife, we need to curb the mind's habit of always rushing out into the pleasing aspects of sense objects. (sorry ladies, I know you are more than just that, and just reverse everything - our male bodies are 'sense objects' too, from your perspective).

:namaste:
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:48 am

Hi manasikara,

See also this sutta:
SN 35.127: Bharadvaja Sutta viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8500#p132726

:anjali:
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Zom » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:39 am

This implies that we have to maintain watchfulness all day, because as laypersons we are going to see and interact with many women through the day. So instead of letting our minds (as it is their habit to automatically do) immediately zero in on the particular aspects of the female form that we find most alluring - each will have their own - we restrain ourselves from that. It's like undoing a habit one has had since teenage years, but if we are serious about the practice, I guess we will have to bite the bullet and take it on - even if we have a girlfriend or a wife


And I would also add, that asubha-perception works great if your "watchfulness" has failed ,)
I do that every time, sometimes many times a day. If I catch my mind looking on some female forms - I establish asubha-perception of that particular form (you need to develop some power of imagination here), and then, when I see a slightest revulsion takes its place, I remove the mind from that object .) Doing so I dispel already arisen lust and don't let aversion to take its place. As a result - the mind is balanced and calmed, not invaded by greed-root or anger-root.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby manas » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:36 pm

Mike - thanks for the link. :thumbsup: Zom - that's just what I do myself (when I am having another go at calming lust for a while). In my experience, when I make an actual intention-determination to stop gratifying myself sexually for a while (for the sake of improved meditation - there has to be a 'carrot' somewhere, otherwise the mind will tire of it and rebel, IME), a few interesting things happen. 1. Although I have stopped 'checking out' attractive women, they seem to begin checking out me. 2. After a few days of abstinence, where I have restrained the mind from indulging in thoughts (or in looking at the pleasing features of) attractive women, their 'beauty' increases a bit in my perception, calling on me to, as you pointed out, bring in 'weapon number 2': asubha. Like yourself, I only do this if my mind has lost the initial battle (not to look (with an unguarded mind) in the first place!). Only yesterday I was temporarily bewildered due to just this...alas I had to do the visualization where I take the form apart in my mind, 'seeing' how the skin is actually greyish white (it is only pinkish due to blood flowing under it), how the hair of the head is formed out of blood (I suppose just about the whole body is, as the blood is what supplies the nutrients for growth - a monk once told me about this), how the skin is penetrated by countless tiny, hidden nerve rootlets coming up from underneath...and we haven't even gone into the bodily cage (the skeleton yet), and all the organs it houses! IMHO asubha contemplation is not for everyone, and should be undertaken with care. It could easily lead to aversion, which is not what we are looking for. Like you said, Zom, I use it only when necessary to calm the body-mind if it becomes 'overheated'.

:namaste:
Last edited by manas on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby daverupa » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:19 pm

Here's a fairly detailed article going over some neurochemical basics. It makes for interesting reading, and may help put things in perspective. Sex is, basically, a biologically hardwired heroin addiction.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Postby Pondera » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Ben wrote:
Pondera wrote:Well. I've looked for it everywhere for the sutta, but I can't find the one I'm looking for.

Given what you've provided above, I'd say it doesn't exist. Its best not to put words in the mouth of the Buddha, Pondera, as you misrepresent the Dhamma.

EDIT:
Intentionally causing oneself to emit semen, or getting someone else to cause one to emit semen — except during a dream — is a saṅghādisesa offense. (Sg 1)


I guarantee without a doubt in my mind that this text reference is real. As to whether or not I have or can on any given occasion represent the dhamma of any text without "putting words into the mouth of the Buddha", I do not believe that I, or anyone else for that matter, can be one hundred percent assured that he or she has not misrepresented the meaning of any given text.

In this case the meaning was simple. Masturbation was not allowed among the sangha, however for this particular disciple it was. It is worth mentioning that the disciple was overcome with fear and humiliation at his own medical need to masturbate because it was not his desire that he should do so, only that his physiological make up made it necessary, in so much as those things happen to be that way.

To be fair, I will find this text, though like many other obscure Buddhist sayings I am not even certain if someone has put it on the internet. That is, so to speak, the only way in which the information age works. We only have the information provided if someone wise enough went to enough trouble to post it somewhere on the net.

The Buddha was asked which side a person should sleep on and to this he replied the right. As mundane and weird as it sounds, does it imply that it was never said? I could not easily provide a reference for that saying either. However it was worth mentioning to the compilers of the tripitaka. A more accessible reference. The Buddha once said that those who behave like dogs or cows are reborn as dogs or cows. As crazy as this sounds it does not mean that I invented it.
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Postby Pondera » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:19 pm

daverupa wrote:
Pondera wrote:You'll have to trust me on this one... A years worth of testosterone built up in your body is the proportional equivalent of a pheromone release that will cover half the globe... This will attract the woman who was meant for you. You're pheromones encode... And since your pheromones are now mixing all over the globe, if there is a girl out there for you she will be "attracted" to you, like gravity, every time...


What a ridiculous pile of pseudo-factual trash. I can think of no other way to sum up what has been presented, above.


You may recall, if you were so fortunate as many were to attend high-school, that several literary devices exist for the purpose of making ones point. One such device is the hyperbole.

I asserted four things in what I said and I trust there is no reason for you to object to any of them.

1. Masturbation releases semen and the body, in response, diverts testosterone towards the primary production of semen.
2. The production of male pheromones rely also on testosterone.

Wiki: Pheromone: "In animals, sex pheromones indicate the availability of the female for breeding. Male animals may also emit pheromones that convey information about their species and genotype.

3. By masturbating a man decreases his body's semen amounts. To regain equilibrium the body immediately diverts testosterone levels to the production of semen. All other bodily functions that rely on testosterone are sublimated for the purpose of testosterone production.
4. With lower levels of pheromone men are not only at a disadvantage when it comes to meeting any woman, they are at a disadvantage when it comes to meeting the woman who is most particularly suited for him. Why? Because pheromones attract the opposite sex.
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Postby daverupa » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:47 pm

Pondera wrote:I asserted four things in what I said and I trust there is no reason for you to object to any of them.


I'll just take one, because that's enough.

"[N]o pheromonal substance has ever been demonstrated to directly influence human behavior in a peer reviewed study."

source

So...

:focus:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Postby Pondera » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:35 pm

daverupa wrote:
I'll just take one, because that's enough.

"[N]o pheromonal substance has ever been demonstrated to directly influence human behavior in a peer reviewed study."

source

So...

:focus:


What you quote is indirectly related to another phenomena which was, to be specific, a trend that developed in the seventies over an idea that aphrodisiac could be sold in the form of bottled pheromone. The statement does not refer to the existence of pheromones biologically and in fact says nothing more than that scientists do not as of yet know how to design an experiment which tests the nature of pheromones. To be quite honest, the way in which they work is an indirect way, not direct. Besides, evolution provides with a perfectly clear reason or rational for the way in which pheromones play the pivotal role of selective breeding.

Men who are accustomed to masturbating, and by this I mean that percentage of men in any given population who prefer to masturbate rather than control their urges are selectively chosen by the mechanism of evolution to not breed. It may sound here like I am turning Evolution into some sort of crafty mechanic, however what I am speaking about is a simple case of cause and effect -totally disconnected from any moral or idealistic leanings. The simple truth is that men who masturbate do not copulate. They indeed are left "to play with their selves" and the men who restrain themselves are left to meet their partners. Pheromones simply act as the gustatory stimulant which indirectly influences the behavior of men and women. The presence of pheromones in wild animals is evidence enough that it is a realty in humans. I don't mean to imply that those who masturbate are somehow inferior to those who do not, I merely mean to indicate that, aside from the moral repercussions that may or may not follow from masturbation, the existential repercussions are quite self explanatory. Those who masturbate have very little to offer women in the comparison to those who are so full of the reproductive substance that they are ready to burst. The mere and basic tendency to control those urges is on a basic level better for women in the aspect of forming a lasting relationship. Indirectly, the basic control one has over their tendency to alleviate their urges with their own extremities produces the abundance of pheromones. Hence the moral good of sexual restraint has a physiological advantage of making the person who can restrain himself sexually attractive. The intentional restraint over ones sexual desires and the subsequent attraction this creates for the opposite sex simply go hand in hand and do not really differ from one or another if we are to at least assume that morality and biology are two fruits from the same tree eaten by people of different palates and tastes.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby daverupa » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:55 pm

Sure thing, Pondera. Whatever papanca you like.

:focus:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:09 am

daverupa wrote:Sure thing, Pondera. Whatever papanca you like.

:focus:


I suppose you must forgive me along with my λόγος, for it is not to your liking. My most sincerest of apologies.

-Pondera
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Soe Win Htut » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:28 am

Dear friend,

To abandon the lust or a habitual deeds.

1) Accept whatever mind such as lust, desire, thinking, feeling, sensation or emotion as created truth which is fake and fraud nature.(Sammuti Sacca).

2) Understand that the created truth is unreal and not a real existence because it is temporary, inconstant, impermanent and non-self.

3) Accept that created truths are just to be used for the practice of abandonment (Letting go).

4) At first, be aware of the mind-action of centering, and believing the current arising mind & body (or) created truths as reality so that we can abandon it.

5) But we do not try to abandon directly the arising mind such as a thinking, lust, craving, an agitation or a negative thought which is just a created truth. We must neither indulge nor reject it directly. It is just to be used only or experiened only for the practice of abandonment (Letting go).

6) And then try to abandon the mind-action of emphasizing and centering and believing the arising mind as reality which is accompanying behind the arising mind such as a thinking, lust, craving, an agitation or a negative thought.

if possible, meditate daily as much as you can with the help of insight guided meditation at below link : http://onlymiddleway.multiply.com/music
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for real enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known only but .....they are not for noting, believing, confirming, centering and thinking as reality and real importance.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is just the abandoning the mind-action of centering, grasping, confirming, and attaching the created truths as reality and as of real importance.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/
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Re: Naughty posts (topic number = 489)

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:27 am

Ben wrote:Given what you've provided above, I'd say it doesn't exist. Its best not to put words in the mouth of the Buddha, Pondera, as you misrepresent the Dhamma.

EDIT:
Intentionally causing oneself to emit semen, or getting someone else to cause one to emit semen — except during a dream — is a saṅghādisesa offense. (Sg 1)


I stand humiliated and wrong. The text is from the Vinaya Pitaka. A version of it also appears in the Dhammapada. It was the Ven. Seyyasaka who had the bad looking skin. It was Ven. Udayin who encouraged him to masturbate so that his health would improve and the Buddha rebuked him for it. He did not support it. So, I have misrepresented the Buddha, though not intentionally as I read the text a long, long while back, the translation was different. There was a much greater emphasis on the whole part about Ven. Seyyasaka being teased by the other monks, and I thought it finished there, so somewhere in my memory banks I assumed he was simply allowed to do this. On the contrary, the reference, which does exist, though in an entirely different manner than the way in which I was able to recall it, is the primary source for the rule which was quoted above. My apologies. Masturbation is wrong.
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:32 am

No problems Pondera. In future you may wish to quote and cite rather than rely on memory.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby manas » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:43 am

Hi rb3, and all,

I was reading this section of Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo's exposition of Satipatthana practice and came across something that is indeed useful for calming down sensual fever. The Ajahn really has a way with words here:

Ajahn Lee wrote:# Investigate the 32 parts of the body, beginning with the hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, etc. Make a thorough survey and evaluation. If this method doesn't calm the mind, go on to —
# Investigate the various repugnant aspects of the body, beginning with the fact that the body is a conglomeration of all sorts of things. In other words, it's a burial ground, a national cemetery, filled with the corpses of cattle, pigs, ducks, chickens, sour, sweet, greasy, salty, gathered and aged in the stomach, filtered and distilled into blood, pus, decomposing and putrid, oozing throughout the body and coming out its various openings: this body, which all of us in the human race care for without ceasing — bathing it, scrubbing it, masking its smell — and even then its filth keeps displaying itself as ear wax, eye secretions, nasal drip, tooth tartar, skin-scruff, and sweat, always oozing out, filthy in every way. What it comes from is filthy, where it stays is filthy (i.e., in a cemetery of fresh corpses, or even worse — we've probably buried hundreds of different kinds of corpses within ourselves). If you look at the human body, you'll see that its characteristics are ill-matched and incongruous. Its smell is something really offensive. If looking at the body in this way doesn't give rise to a sense of dismay and detachment, go on to — ...


(there's more but I will stop here). The section I posted is from here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html

I think that if we sincerely contemplate what Ven. Lee wrote above, we might suddenly feel like being with our kammathana, rather than pursuing sex pleasure...well I'll give it a try, anyway...

with metta,

m. :anjali:
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Re: Need help to overcome lust

Postby Memmz » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:37 am

You should try contacting your doctor and ask for drugs that will inhibit this.
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