Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby cooran » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:01 pm

Hello Qtt, all,

This might help:

THERAVADA VERSION OF THE TWO TRUTHS
Y. KARUNADASA Visiting Professor Centre of Buddhist Studies, University of Hong Kong
(Emeritus Professor, University of Kelaniya, Sri Lanka)

http://skb.or.kr/down/papers/094.pdf

with metta
Chris
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 pm

cooran wrote:This might help:


This was already linked...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.


As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?

Image
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:47 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.


As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?
As usual no heavy lifting from you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:As usual no heavy lifting from you.


What an odd thing to say. :shrug:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:55 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As usual no heavy lifting from you.


What an odd thing to say. :shrug:
You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response. You tend make snide and dismissive remarks about various teachings with which you disagree and when asked about what you are saying you just refuse to explain your remarks, and so it goes here, again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.


You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, it actually cuts to the chase, but you'll see what you want.

tiltbillings wrote:snide and dismissive remarks


tiltbillings wrote:you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers


Indeed.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:10 pm

Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.


If it was very important, then the Buddha would frequently and clearly teach about it and there would be no doubt if He taught it.

nītattha and neyyattha are mentioned in two similar suttas out of thousands of suttas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

And these terms do not even need to be interpreted as saying about two truths.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:11 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.


You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, actually, but you'll see what you want.
I'll be happy to answer the question, but I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.

Basically, I would like to know what it is that you guys think the two truth notion is actually saying and why it is wrong, as your dismissals seem to suggest..
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:14 pm

Alex123 wrote:Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.


If it was very important, then the Buddha would frequently and clearly teach about it and there would be no doubt if He taught it.
So, if it is not clearly spelled out in the suttas, then drawing out any implication found in the suttas is an inappropriate thing to do, so it would seem. It that what you are saying.

But what I would like to know for you dismissal guys is what you think the two truth doctrine is actually saying, and then why it is wrong, as your dismissals seem to suggest.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:16 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.

I won't be engaging with such an immature question, thank you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.


AN 4.42 wrote:"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:26 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.

I won't be engaging with such an immature question, thank you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you do not like the legitimate word pooh-pooh, the substitute the word dismiss.

You stated:
Yes - have heard the distinction between these two modes being regarded by some as "conventional language" and "Dhamma language".

One does not negate the other of course, but only one communicates the unique, deep and original Dhammic insights that the Buddha brought to the table.

That's a slightly different spectrum though to the distinction between sutta language and paramattha dhammas.
Are we to read this as a dismissal? It seems to be, but it is unclear what you actually think two truth notion is saying and why it is wrong, as seems to be implied in this not very clear msg.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:31 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.


AN 4.42 wrote:"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."
Okay, then let mne simply say that I'll be happy to address your question when I understand what your objection is to the tweo truth notion. That is what I want to address. It may be that your objection is quite valid. I do not think that one must accept the two truths notion, but I a curious about the dismissal of it beyond what very little that has been said here by those are dismissing it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:38 pm

daverupa wrote:As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?

As I said above: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10184#p155954 I think the contrast between "slicing up experience into bits" and "talking about beings" is rather obvious in the Suttas.

So, I can't really agree with this statement:
retrofuturist wrote:That's a slightly different spectrum though to the distinction between sutta language and paramattha dhammas.

since I see paramattha dhamma as simply an extension of the khandha/sense bases/elements/etc slicing of phenomenological experience. Just a more thorough classification of phenomenology (which may or may not be particularly necessary, but that's a different issue).

:anjali:
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:16 pm

Greetings Mike,

Keep in mind that I was

1. responding with reference to the OP's question,
2. in the context of the Early Buddhism sub-forum,
3. in a topic entitled "Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?"

Accordingly I'm not in this sub-forum to talk about the merits or usefulness (or otherwise) of that which clearly isn't "early" and what the Buddha didn't teach. That would be...

:offtopic:

... so the different issues will be left to the side.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:27 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Accordingly I'm not in this sub-forum to talk about the merits or usefulness (or otherwise) of that which clearly isn't "early" and what the Buddha didn't teach.

I beg to differ:
    1. I've explained how I see the "two truth" thing plays out very obviously (to me) in the suttas, so I don't agree with your assertion that "The Buddha didn't teach it."
    2. "Early Buddhism" is (to me) about the various early schools. So the various Abhidhammas/Abhidharmas and commentaries are relevant.

:anjali:
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:35 am

Greetings Mike,

FYI, "What the Buddha didn't teach" was with specific reference to "paramattha dhamma", not 'two truths theory".

mikenz66 wrote:I see paramattha dhamma as simply an extension of the khandha/sense bases/elements/etc slicing of phenomenological experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:45 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

FYI, "What the Buddha didn't teach" was with specific reference to "paramattha dhamma", not 'two truths theory".

mikenz66 wrote:I see paramattha dhamma as simply an extension of the khandha/sense bases/elements/etc slicing of phenomenological experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)

OK, I agree that the Buddha didn't use the actual words "paramattha dhamma".

However, I see the paramattha/two truths ideas in the suttas, as I have explained.

:anjali:
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