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Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas - Dhamma Wheel

Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:46 am


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Ben
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:05 am

Excellent and interesting post, Mike!
I look forward to the discussion with interest.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:27 am

Hello Mike, all,

My understanding of ‘concept’ is that it is an Idea or Notion formed in the mind.
Is this how you are using it here?

In which case, I don’t see how it applies to Metta meditation.

When I do metta, it is a ‘feeling’ that I pervade, not an Idea.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:47 am

Hi Cooran,

Good question!

The way I saw it, I was using "conceptual" to mean something created by the mind.

As I understand it, with metta one generates a loving-kindness concept ("may all beings be happy" or some such).
Of course this will result in the experience of feeling (vedana).

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:29 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:14 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:15 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:24 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:30 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:31 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:41 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:51 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:57 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:00 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:14 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:15 am


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ground
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby ground » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:15 am

A concept can only arise after having been learned. Learning is connecting a mere experience with an optical (reading, seeing) and/or acoustical (hearing) symbol amended by a universal distorting visualization of the experience. A (learned) concept actually is a memory ready to come into mind once the experiential stimulus occurs.

This "memory coming into mind" is nothing other than the cascade of dependent origination. Therefore "memory" or "concept" arises in dependence on all aggregates.
First there is a "stirring" dependent on form/body which may be called "sankhara". Only if there is attention this "stirring" develops further until it "crystallizes" (implying alleged "concreteness"). If there is contact of mind consciousness perception and feeling and papanca and volitional formations ensue.
The sense bases involved are one or more of the physical senses and the mind base. Mind base entails determining consciousness which necessarily implies "memory".


Kind regards

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:18 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:21 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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