The Sphere of the Fourth Jhana

[brahmabull]

Hi Everyone,

I did a little searching around this site and could not find an answer. I have read in Vasubhandu's kosha and found one Theravada blurb on Google books that the realm of the fourth jhana/dhyana is not subject to destruction at the end of the world system. Then it would not be comprised of elements or caused by kammic/karmic winds. Is this correct? Having a hard time with, how then, someone born in this realm would be impermanent. I would be very appreciative is someone knowledgeable in Abhidhamma could explain this bit about Cosmology to me. Thank you,

B

[David N. Snyder]

I did a little searching around this site and could not find an answer. I have read in Vasubhandu's kosha and found one Theravada blurb on Google books that the realm of the fourth jhana/dhyana is not subject to destruction at the end of the world system. Then it would not be comprised of elements or caused by kammic/karmic winds. Is this correct? Having a hard time with, how then, someone born in this realm would be impermanent. I would be very appreciative is someone knowledgeable in Abhidhamma could explain this bit about Cosmology to me. Thank you,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel!

I am not sure what you mean by "realm of the fourth jhana" as if it were a plane of existence? Or do you mean the planes of existence that are associated with proficiency in the fourth jhana? If so, then why would those realms not be subject to kammic winds?

Do you have to be "in" a world system to be impermanent? I don't think so.

[brahmabull]

I did a little searching around this site and could not find an answer. I have read in Vasubhandu's kosha and found one Theravada blurb on Google books that the realm of the fourth jhana/dhyana is not subject to destruction at the end of the world system. Then it would not be comprised of elements or caused by kammic/karmic winds. Is this correct? Having a hard time with, how then, someone born in this realm would be impermanent. I would be very appreciative is someone knowledgeable in Abhidhamma could explain this bit about Cosmology to me. Thank you,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel!

I am not sure what you mean by "realm of the fourth jhana" as if it were a plane of existence? Or do you mean the planes of existence that are associated with proficiency in the fourth jhana? If so, then why would those realms not be subject to kammic winds?

Do you have to be "in" a world system to be impermanent? I don't think so.

Thank you! Yes the realms associated with proficiency of the fourth jhana. Are these not subject to destruction at the end of the world age by any of the four elements according to Abhidhamma? This is my question.

[David N. Snyder]

Thank you! Yes the realms associated with proficiency of the fourth jhana. Are these not subject to destruction at the end of the world age by any of the four elements according to Abhidhamma? This is my question.

Okay, thanks for that clarification. Yes, not subject to destruction by the physical elements, is my understanding. A world system could get destroyed, but those 'beings' would not be destroyed/killed. It is only those beings in the realms from 1 to 17 that get destroyed in the list of the 31 planes of existence (and then move on to another world system). But those in the realms associated with the fourth jhana would still be impermanent and subject to samsara, citta or states of consciousness.

[brahmabull]

But those in the realms associated with the fourth jhana would still be impermanent and subject to samsara, citta or states of consciousness.

Okay thank you for this clarity. My next question is the following:

The four elements (and suffering/birth/death) are stirred by kamma. The fourth jhana does not include pleasure or pain, arguably, is without kammic fruition. Then, why would there be suffering or death in this plane?

[David N. Snyder]

The four elements (and suffering/birth/death) are stirred by kamma. The fourth jhana does not include pleasure or pain, arguably, is without kammic fruition. Then, why would there be suffering or death in this plane?

The realms associated with proficiency in the fourth jhana are still within the sense world, so there can still be citta moments and sense cravings. The 'beings' are not necessarily continually in the fourth jhana, from my understanding of the texts.

[brahmabull]

The 'beings' are not necessarily continually in the fourth jhana, from my understanding of the texts.

Okay so the fourth jhana is predominately what let to rebirth in this realm, but beings are not something like made of a fourth jhana mind?

[David N. Snyder]

Okay so the fourth jhana is predominately what let to rebirth in this realm, but beings are not something like made of a fourth jhana mind?

Correct.

[brahmabull]

Correct.

My thanks.