Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Alex123 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ñāṇa,
Ñāṇa wrote:...and the commentary (Abhidharmakośabhāsya) is generally considered to be Sautrāntika.
Not to doubt you (because matters of this ilk aren't my specialty) but it sounds a little incongruent for them to author an Abhidhamma commentary given that Sautrāntika means "those who rely upon the sutras"!

Metta,
Retro. :)
Somewhere I have read that Sautrāntika does not have to mean reliance on suttas as discourses in Sutta-Pitaka. Assuming that Sautrāntika in pali would be suttantika, I propose this alternative:

sutta= a thread; a string; a discourse; an aphorism.

As I understand their Abhidharma from what I've read from others, it teaches momentariness and that somehow cittas pass accumulations from one citta to another. Perhaps they had some sort of a "thread" (a meaning of sutta) that links momentary cittas. Or maybe the process of cittas runs like beads on a thread.
No, that isn't what Sautrantika means. Such a definition is quite a fantasy. The Sautrantikas are "those who take sutra as their pramana".

~~ Huifeng
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

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mikenz66 wrote:Hi Geoff,

So this is a summary the Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma that was used by the Mahayana schools?
Not really. Some did, some didn't. The Yogacara is closest, but even then, didn't really "use" it as such.
And a large amount of Mahayana texts were already composed before it even appeared.

However, because the Tibetan traditions still use it a lot, nowadays people can easily have the idea that
"the Mahayana" used it. In the big picture of things, the Tibetan traditions are only a small part of the
Mahayana traditions in the past, and the present.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

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Sacha G wrote:Hello
I found this interpretation of Dependent Origination by Vasubandhu in the Abhidharmakosa.
I think it's all the more interesting as it is a "momentary" interpretation, in a classical (northern) abhidharma text.
"When a person in prey to the kleshas commits murder [for example], the 12 parts are realized in one and the same moment:
1) His error is Ignorance
2. His intention are the Formations
3. His distinct consciousness of a certain object is Consciousness
4. The 4 [other] aggregates co-existing with Consciousness is Name & Form
5. The organs in relation to Name & Form are the six Sense Bases
6. The application of the six Sense Bases is Contact
7. To experience contact is Feeling
8. Desire is Craving
9. The paryavastahans [absenc of shame etc...] associated with Craving are Attachement
10. Bodily and vocal actions proceeding from that are Bhava
11. The production of all these dharmas is Birth
12. Their maturity is old Age and their rupture is Death...."
:group:
Actually, if one looks into the section on pratitya-samutpada in the Dharma-skandha-pada Abhidharma Sastra, one will find explanations of pratitya-samutpada in both multiple life and present life (momentary) formats. This text is probably the first of the northern tradition Abhidharma sastras, roughly parallel with the Dhamma-sangani / Vibhanga. The contents are a bit of a stick in the eye to people like Buddhadasa who want to argue that the pratitya-samutpada as multiple life explanation is very late - for it obviously is not. But very few people look into this or the other early northern tradition Abhidharma sastras. Vasubandhu is just following the general gist of this whole tradition.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Post by mikenz66 »

Dear Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Geoff,
So this is a summary the Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma that was used by the Mahayana schools?
Not really. Some did, some didn't. The Yogacara is closest, but even then, didn't really "use" it as such.
And a large amount of Mahayana texts were already composed before it even appeared.
Thank you very much for the input.

Just to be clear, I do understand that the Abhidharmakosa was a late work.
However, there are two issues here:
1. The influence of the Abhidharmakosa.
2. The influence of the Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma.
I understood that the latter was quite influential in most Mahayana schools. Am I correct in that?

I was also under the (probably mistaken it seems) impression that the Abhidharmakosa was a summary of Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma doctrine in the sense that the Abhidhammatthasangaha is a summary of the Theravada Abhidhamma (as interpreted by the Commentators). But perhaps the Abhidharmakosa is a more "original" work than the Abhidhammatthasangaha?

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Post by Paññāsikhara »

mikenz66 wrote:Dear Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Geoff,
So this is a summary the Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma that was used by the Mahayana schools?
Not really. Some did, some didn't. The Yogacara is closest, but even then, didn't really "use" it as such.
And a large amount of Mahayana texts were already composed before it even appeared.
Thank you very much for the input.
Hi Mike!
Just to be clear, I do understand that the Abhidharmakosa was a late work.
However, there are two issues here:
1. The influence of the Abhidharmakosa.
2. The influence of the Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma.
Noted.
I understood that the latter was quite influential in most Mahayana schools. Am I correct in that?
It's particularly influential in Yogacara, because Yogacara is a kind of Mahayana spin off from the Sautrantika, which was a development (or reversion if you like) from the Sarvastivada Vaibhasika movement. But the early Mahayana sutras really don't seem to have been influenced by it. And later stuff is just a merger of a large number of tendencies in Buddhism in India at that time. Influential including contra-influential, right?
I was also under the (probably mistaken it seems) impression that the Abhidharmakosa was a summary of Sarvāstivādin Abhidarma doctrine in the sense that the Abhidhammatthasangaha is a summary of the Theravada Abhidhamma (as interpreted by the Commentators). But perhaps the Abhidharmakosa is a more "original" work than the Abhidhammatthasangaha?
Well, to the Tibetans, they usually consider it as a summary to the Vaibhasika side of things (being those Sarvastivadins who took the Mahavibhasa as their standard). But, this is partly I believe because the Tibetans don't have that much in the way of the older Sarvastivadin material, eg. the seven root sastras, and the Mahavibhasa. So, the Chinese on the other hand, consider the Kosa as a mid-point between the Vaibhasika and Sautrantika approaches. The Chinese have more older material to make this point. Thus, the Kosa was as much a criticism and correction of the Vibhasa as it was a summary.

The Kosa is much closer in time (at least) to the original sastras it is commenting on than the Atthasangaha, which is quite a lot later. And the Kosa is also much longer, four large volumes in English translation may be much smaller than the Vibhasa, but hard to call it a "summary"! haha! The Kosa has debates, discussion, etc., the sort of thing that is absent from the Atthasangaha.
:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

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Paññāsikhara wrote: . . . ~~ Huifeng
Welcome back. Your input here is greatly appreciated and I really enjoy it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

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tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote: . . . ~~ Huifeng
Welcome back. Your input here is greatly appreciated and I really enjoy it.
Hi Tilt,

Hopefully providing a voice for the other Sthaviravadins ...

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote: . . . ~~ Huifeng
Welcome back. Your input here is greatly appreciated and I really enjoy it.
Hi Tilt,

Hopefully providing a voice for the other Sthaviravadins ...

~~ Huifeng
Shhhh. Not so loud.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

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If you know something, your job is to teach it.
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:If you know something, your job is to teach it.
That is scary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Vasubandhu on"Momentary Dependent Origination"

Post by alan »

Seems basic to me.
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