Lineage of monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:49 am

Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:56 am

chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.

Thanks for the information....it doesn't seem to address my question though.
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:43 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.

Thanks for the information....it doesn't seem to address my question though.
chownah
Not directly, but the point is that a lineage of monks started independently of the established Vinaya lineages would not be recognized as Vinaya monks or nuns.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:07 am

Actually the point is "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?

But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"

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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:17 am

chownah wrote:Actually the point is "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?

But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"

chownah
I thought I answered that. For someone else who has not been ordained who tries to call himself a monk is regarded as a thief, I do believe that has been addressed somewhere in the Vinaya. So starting a new lineage of ordination is not regarded as legitimate. Likely somewhere will have a reference for that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby Bankei » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:52 am

Lineage is Vamsa in Pali. I think any one taking an ordination would have a lineage. It is like a family tree. With Buddhist monks they would all have a common ancestor which would be the Buddha.

There are of course other lineages of monks such as Jaina and other Sramanera groups. They would be valid by their own criteria though.

So it is a bit of a strange question. I don't think the Buddha taught anyware that only he could initiate a lineage of monks.

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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:52 am

Well, so far no one has brought a reference where the Buddha teaches that only he can start a lineage of monks. It was my impression that he did not teach that and since no one has produced a reference I am even more firm in my belief that he did not teach that. If anyone has a reference indicating that the Buddha did teach this then please post it here.

Also, Is there any Pali reference anywhere stating by anyone that only the Buddha can start a lineage of monks?
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby Gena1480 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:12 am

looks like Venerable Ajaan Mun
started a lineage
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:54 am

chownah wrote:Well, so far no one has brought a reference where the Buddha teaches that only he can start a lineage of monks.
Since we are all called "Sakyaputta" and anyone who commits an offence of defeat is no longer a bhikkhu, no longer a "Sakyaputta" I think it should be blatantly obvious that we are all direct descendants of the Buddha.

Any ordination without a full quorum of bhikkhus is not legally valid — in Middle India that means 10 bhikkhus, elsewhere it means five.

I really don't understand what your dilemma is or why you even care about this question.
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:18 am

Bhikkhu Pesala,
Thanks for your response...I guess you are saying some things that you think are important but really they do not address my question. I know that you do not understand why I am asking this question but I want to tell you that I have no dilemma and really think that you must be making assumptions about me and it seems that your assumptions are inaccurate in that I have no dilemma; I'm just asking a question. So far no one has offered a Pali reference that addresses my question....and I guess you are not able to produce a Pali reference as well....if you can produce a Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage I ask you to please bring it here so I can read about it.....with each post that get's added to this thread I am becoming more certain that in fact there is no Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage....I'm not wanting to argue about this....I just want to find if such a reference exists and whether the Buddha taught that only he can start a lineage.
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:30 am

Gena1480 wrote:looks like Venerable Ajaan Mun
started a lineage
He did not start an ordination lineage.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby appicchato » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:56 am

chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah


Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:58 am

chownah wrote:only the Buddha can start a lineage
Explain what you mean by "start a lineage."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:02 am

Greetings,

appicchato wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah

Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...

:goodpost:

It would seem to be "no", unless evidence was brought forward to the contrary.

In other words, the onus would seem to be on those suggesting that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks. I've never seen it.

In fact, I don't even recall the Buddha speaking of (different) lineages. Did he regarded the bhikkhunis as a separate "lineage".

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

appicchato wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah

Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...

:goodpost:

It would seem to be "no", unless evidence was brought forward to the contrary.
One could start a lineage, whatever that might mean, but if it has no connexion with an intact Vinaya lineage, following the established rules of ordination, it is simply something started by some person having no connexion to the ordination lineage started by the Buddha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:01 am

Greetings,

There are different Buddhist lineages in existence today... surely the Buddha did not personally instigate them all?

In which case the answer to Chownah's question would (once more) seem like a "no".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

There are different Buddhist lineages in existence today... surely the Buddha did not personally instigate them all?

In which case the answer to Chownah's question would (once more) seem like a "no".

Metta,
Retro. :)
All the extant Vinaya lineages derive from the initial ordination lineage started by the Buddha. Now there are non-Vinaya ordination lineages in Japan that arose after monasticism was dismantled by the government. While I have no problem with according members of these lineages due respect, they are not Vinaya lineages.

The answer to Chownah's question is: Like so much in Buddhism, it depends. By definition a Vinaya lineage cannot be started without connexion to an ongoing Vinaya lineage, in accordance to the established rules. Within the Theravada Sangha in Sri Lanka and Thailand there are sub-groups of ordination lineages. These were started with a connexion to an already established Vinaya lineages according to the ordination rules. One cannot start an Vinaya ordination lineage without that connexion.

The Japanese non-Vinaya ordination lineages were statred without that connexion.

Now, one can start an organization such as the Retrofuturist Sangha Shop Boys or the FWBO, with whatever rules and practices ones might want, but it is not a Vinaya lineage, and would have no right to claim it was.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:

The answer to Chownah's question is: Like so much in Buddhism, it depends.

I agree with this completely. Since my question is, "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?" it clearly depends on whether there is some Pali text where the Buddha teaches that only he can create a lineage of monks. You and others have posted some information which I have sincerely found to be very interesting information and perhaps I will want to pursue a better understanding of it by starting another topic or two or three for the purpose of discussing those interesting things but for this topic I'm really wanting things to stay pretty much on the question of whether there is a Pali text which shows that the Buddha taught that only he could start a lineage of monks....since so far no one has been able to provide a reference to address that question I have also broadened this question somewhat to include any Pali reference where anyone says that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks....but so far no one has brought a reference which indicates that either...so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks.....but I'm still asking for anyone to please search the Pali and find such a reference...I've looked around a bit and so far have found nothing but I'm not nearly as experienced in Pali references as many people here and also I only have a modem in northern Thailand so you can imaging that my searches are sometimes a bit tedious....

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Re: Lineage of monks

Postby daverupa » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:19 pm

It's all in the Mahavagga.

And the venerable Aññâtakondañña, having seen the Truth, having mastered the Truth, having understood the Truth, having penetrated the Truth, having overcome uncertainty, having dispelled all doubts, having gained full knowledge, dependent on nobody else for knowledge of the doctrine of the Teacher, thus spoke to the Blessed One: 'Lord, let me receive the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations from the Blessed One.'

'Come, O Bhikkhu,' said the Blessed One, 'well taught is the doctrine; lead a holy life for the sake of the complete extinction of suffering.' Thus this venerable person received the upasampadâ ordination


followed by

'I grant you, O Bhikkhus, this permission: Confer henceforth in the different regions and in the different countries the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations yourselves (on those who desire to receive them). And you ought, O Bhikkhus, to confer the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations in this way: Let him (who desires to receive the ordination), first have his hair and beard cut off; let him put on yellow robes, adjust his upper robe so as to cover one shoulder, salute the feet of the Bhikkhus (with his head), and sit down squatting; then let him raise his joined hands and tell him to say:

'"I take my refuge in the Buddha, I take my refuge in the Dhamma, I take my refuge in the Samgha. And for the second time I take (&c. . . . . Samgha). And for the third time I take my refuge in the Buddha, and for the third time I take my refuge in the Dhamma, and for the third time I take my refuge in the Samgha."

'I prescribe, a Bhikkhus, the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations consisting in the three times repeated declaration of taking refuge (in the holy triad).'


followed by

'I prescribe, O Bhikkhus, (that young Bhikkhus choose) an upagghâya (or preceptor).


and so on.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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