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Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas - Page 8 - Dhamma Wheel

Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:37 pm


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:03 pm


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:47 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:10 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby Kenshou » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:06 am

Dividing things into smaller bits is probably more useful as a basis for discerning anicca. Though I doubt that the more detailed designations are more "ultimate" than the vaguer ones, all being just labels when you get down to it. A hypothetical person with "little dust in their eyes" might do with just "everything is anicca", I figure, though for the rest of us, breaking it down into smaller pieces is helpful.

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby Alex123 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:10 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:39 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby Kenshou » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:43 am

I didn't deny that it is conceptualization. The question is which conceptual designations are most useful in the pursuit of liberation. 5 aggregates, 6 ayatanas, 18 elements, all fabricated categories that form a foundation for our discernment. Because "Hey, everything is anicca" doesn't tend to be quite enough to get through our skulls.

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:44 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:50 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:55 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:34 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:20 am


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:21 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby chownah » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:30 pm


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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:39 pm

Hi Retro,

Many of us have made an effort to demonstrate how the suttas have these various levels of descriptions. If you don't agree that's fine, but to me it's perfectly clear from the "papanca" descriptions, and other suttas, that complex processes are broken down into simple ones, and that is a key part of bhavana as described in the sutttas since it is how the Buddha describes seeing the three characteristics, etc.

So it seems strange that you keep asking for examples. Perhaps you could explain what you see as the problem with the examples that have been given.

Furthermore, you have offered no coherent discussion of the point that has been made that thinking about a "complex concept" such as "one plus one is two" involves of a number of objects and processes. Simply saying that it is "an object of mind" is, at best, rather simplistic description.

PS: I have tried to avoid "Abhidhamma speak" since I'm interested in where these ideas can be found in the suttas. These sorts of ideas were, of course, developed in great detail in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, so pointing out that some idea is to be found in the Abhidhamma or Commentaries is, clearly, not an argument to reject it, or a useful addition to the discussion. What would be useful would be a careful analysis of the idea in relation to the suttas on the subject.

:anjali:
Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:46 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:58 am

Greetings Mike,

I've been criticized by a certain someone via PM for calling your arguments strawmen, without clarification, so let me be clear.

You say, "If you don't agree that's fine" even though I've made it plainly clear in several posts throughout this topic that I don't disagree that the suttas address dhammas in varying levels of granularity. Not once have I said I disagree with that, and you can re-read every single post I've made to date in this topic if you need to verify that.

Thus, everything that stems from that initial erroneous assumption (still held, several pages in, unfortunately) is similarly in error. You are arguing with shadows here - hence my inclination to step away in good spirits from the discussion at this point, despite having enjoyed it thus far. I wish you well in seeking answers to your questions and thank you for your interest in mental cultivation as explained in the Sutta Pitaka.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby dhamma follower » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:18 am



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