Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

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retrofuturist
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Of course, it always depends upon what is meant by jhana, but I am not necessarily talking about jhana practice.
Good to see the qualification - any inference that something is not "meditative practice" simply because it doesn't reflect our own personal "meditative practice" is fraught with danger.

Much of what is admissable in the first jhana gets unfairly dismissed at times as "mere thinking", "just thinking", "an intellectual exercise", "philosophy" etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Of course, it always depends upon what is meant by jhana, but I am not necessarily talking about jhana practice.
Good to see the qualification - any inference that something is not "meditative practice" simply because it doesn't reflect our own personal "meditative practice" is fraught with danger.

Much of what is admissable in the first jhana gets unfairly dismissed at times as "mere thinking", "just thinking", "an intellectual exercise", "philosophy" etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Here is a discussion of the vipassana jhanas by Ven U Pandita.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The desrciption he gives there is what I agree with.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

(At risk of veering off-topic, but at least back to the Sutta Pitaka...)
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:....But if you look directly at the Pali discourses — the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings — you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquillity, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana — a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques. In the few instances where they do mention vipassana, they almost always pair it with samatha — not as two alternative methods, but as two qualities of mind that a person may "gain" or "be endowed with," and that should be developed together. One simile, for instance (SN 35.204), compares samatha and vipassana to a swift pair of messengers who enter the citadel of the body via the noble eightfold path and present their accurate report — Unbinding, or nibbana — to the consciousness acting as the citadel's commander. Another passage (AN 10.71) recommends that anyone who wishes to put an end to mental defilement should — in addition to perfecting the principles of moral behavior and cultivating seclusion — be committed to samatha and endowed with vipassana. This last statement is unremarkable in itself, but the same discourse also gives the same advice to anyone who wants to master the jhanas: be committed to samatha and endowed with vipassana. This suggests that, in the eyes of those who assembled the Pali discourses, samatha, jhana, and vipassana were all part of a single path. Samatha and vipassana were used together to master jhana and then — based on jhana — were developed even further to give rise to the end of mental defilement and to bring release from suffering. This is a reading that finds support in other discourses as well.
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So rather than return to the suttas after the jhanas were turned into (the so-called) "samatha jhanas" by the commentaries, there is now a separate set of jhanas bifurcated to offset and over-correct for the one-sidedness of the earlier interpretation.

Unlike the Blessed Ones words, I cannot rejoice in this.

:weep:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by dhamma follower »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:There's not yet an agreement that the content of Abhidhamma contradicts the sutta.
For you maybe (if you don't see all the implicit philosophical baggage it drags to the table) but it doesn't matter because simply, that's not what this niche sub-forum is about.

If you wish to explore things from an Abhidhammic perspective you've got many sub-forums here in which it would be appropriate. This, is not one of them.

If you wish to explore the Abhidhammic concept of concepts please do so in an appropriate sub-forum - you may also link to it from this topic for the benefit of those who might be interested in it. There's a time and a place for everything.

See also: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10222" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Until then...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,

Don't you think it is arbitrary and unfair to assume THE right understanding of the sutta is not found in the Abhidhamma?

Can we read again the sub forum description: "The investigation of suttas that address meditation and other forms of mental cultivation (bhāvanā)"

It doesn't say "this investigation should be different from the Abhidhamma".

It is quite obvious that the Abhidhamma' set of categorized dhammas is helpful to explain more precisely our meditative experiences and insights.

Apart from some explicit subjects, all disagreements on the understanding of many sutta get stuck over thousands years because all interpretations are subjective and the suttas concerned are not detailed enough to tell who is right.

I appreciate what Kenshou said about the ones with little dust in the eyes...yeah, people today don't have that much wisdom and need more detailed explanations.

Can we not put aside Abhidhamma allergie to get to the heart of the issue: do concepts belong to the five khandas or are they just mirages of the 5 khandas at work?

Regards,
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
dhamma follower wrote:Don't you think it is arbitrary and unfair to assume THE right understanding of the sutta is not found in the Abhidhamma?
In that case you should have no problem translating your Abhidhamma-speak back into sutta concepts in order to make them relevant and on-topic.

Enough.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by chownah »

dhamma follower wrote: Can we read again the sub forum description: "The investigation of suttas that address meditation and other forms of mental cultivation (bhāvanā)"

It doesn't say "this investigation should be different from the Abhidhamma".
It doesn't say that but I would support changing the description so that it does say that. Many people here want to have a discussion of what can be made just from the sutttas...I know you have a difficult time understanding that people can be that way but in fact alot of us are that way and I believe that the intent of this forum is to accomodate those people.
dhamma follower wrote: It is quite obvious that the Abhidhamma' set of categorized dhammas is helpful to explain more precisely our meditative experiences and insights.
This is your opinion only and is not universally held...you should realize this and express your opinion as being your opinion instead of trying to take the high ground and tell us what is right.
dhamma follower wrote: Apart from some explicit subjects, all disagreements on the understanding of many sutta get stuck over thousands years because all interpretations are subjective and the suttas concerned are not detailed enough to tell who is right.
For some people this is the charm of the suttas.....also for many people telling who is right gets more difficult when Abhidhamma is added to the mix.
dhamma follower wrote: Can we not put aside Abhidhamma allergie to get to the heart of the issue: do concepts belong to the five khandas or are they just mirages of the 5 khandas at work?
No allergies here....we just want a place to discuss stuff without Abhidhammic ideas being introduced....I guess that's hard for you to understand but take my word for it there are many here who want just that......there are other places where abhidammic ideas are welcome. I hope that you can understand this and try to accomodate those who want this forum to be as I have described......if my description is correct....I could be wrong....
chownah
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

Many of us have made an effort to demonstrate how the suttas have these various levels of descriptions. If you don't agree that's fine, but to me it's perfectly clear from the "papanca" descriptions, and other suttas, that complex processes are broken down into simple ones, and that is a key part of bhavana as described in the sutttas since it is how the Buddha describes seeing the three characteristics, etc.

So it seems strange that you keep asking for examples. Perhaps you could explain what you see as the problem with the examples that have been given.

Furthermore, you have offered no coherent discussion of the point that has been made that thinking about a "complex concept" such as "one plus one is two" involves of a number of objects and processes. Simply saying that it is "an object of mind" is, at best, rather simplistic description.

PS: I have tried to avoid "Abhidhamma speak" since I'm interested in where these ideas can be found in the suttas. These sorts of ideas were, of course, developed in great detail in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, so pointing out that some idea is to be found in the Abhidhamma or Commentaries is, clearly, not an argument to reject it, or a useful addition to the discussion. What would be useful would be a careful analysis of the idea in relation to the suttas on the subject.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
Many of us have made an effort to demonstrate how the suttas have these various levels of descriptions. If you don't agree that's fine
:strawman: :?
Perhaps you could explain what you see as the problem with the examples that have been given.
:strawman: :?
Furthermore, you have offered no coherent discussion of the point that has been made that thinking about a "complex concept" such as "one plus one is two" involves of a number of objects and processes. Simply saying that it is "an object of mind" is, at best, rather simplistic description.
I have explained it to a context sufficient for realisation of the three characteristics vis-a-vis the six consciousnesses and other schemas found in the Sutta Pitaka. If you seek more edification beyond the Sutta Pitaka, by all means do so Mike - I was just curious about what you anticipated the practical benefits to be (given you so often state your interest is in "practice").

That's about it for me in this topic by the looks of it - it's been good, thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

I've been criticized by a certain someone via PM for calling your arguments strawmen, without clarification, so let me be clear.

You say, "If you don't agree that's fine" even though I've made it plainly clear in several posts throughout this topic that I don't disagree that the suttas address dhammas in varying levels of granularity. Not once have I said I disagree with that, and you can re-read every single post I've made to date in this topic if you need to verify that.

Thus, everything that stems from that initial erroneous assumption (still held, several pages in, unfortunately) is similarly in error. You are arguing with shadows here - hence my inclination to step away in good spirits from the discussion at this point, despite having enjoyed it thus far. I wish you well in seeking answers to your questions and thank you for your interest in mental cultivation as explained in the Sutta Pitaka.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by dhamma follower »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
dhamma follower wrote:Don't you think it is arbitrary and unfair to assume THE right understanding of the sutta is not found in the Abhidhamma?
In that case you should have no problem translating your Abhidhamma-speak back into sutta concepts in order to make them relevant and on-topic.

Enough.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,

The main ideas of my posts use suttas concepts. Sati, panna, the five khandas, sanna all are suttas concepts, right? The term processes might not appear as such in the suttas, but i don't think anyone here has problems with seeing that the working of the five khandas are processes and reading several suttas that way.

Now can I put the question again: do concepts (such as schools, person, women, men...) belong to the five khandas? Or they are just the mirages created by different processes as the five khandas are working?

Hardly Abhidhammic, isn't it?

As for your question to Mike about the practical implication of such distinction, I have actually mentioned it earlier but will say it again here:

Because the panna that arises and understands tilakkhana must have the five khandas as objects, it is through seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta of the five khandas that one gains liberation. Do I have to quote the numerous suttas in which the Buddha asked the disciples about the five khandas or the six ayatanas etc...upon which the disciples were freed from the taints?

Please show otherwise !

Regards,
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Please show otherwise !
I have no inclination to do so, but thank you for checking out the Abhidhamma-speak at the door. It will be waiting and available for you, upon your exit. Please enjoy your stay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by Kenshou »

Now can I put the question again: do concepts (such as schools, person, women, men...) belong to the five khandas? Or they are just the mirages created by different processes as the five khandas are working?
Since all the constituents of a concept are of the 5 aggregates, I don't see how a concept could be mirage like or illusory, it is comprised entirely of events that are actually occurring. And the labels we apply to those bundles of various mental objects comprising a concept (schools, person, women, as you say) could probably just be classified as sanna. So I don't see the mirage here.
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by tiltbillings »

Kenshou wrote:
Now can I put the question again: do concepts (such as schools, person, women, men...) belong to the five khandas? Or they are just the mirages created by different processes as the five khandas are working?
Since all the constituents of a concept are of the 5 aggregates, I don't see how a concept could be mirage like or illusory, it is comprised entirely of events that are actually occurring. And the labels we apply to those bundles of various mental objects comprising a concept (schools, person, women, as you say) could probably just be classified as sanna. So I don't see the mirage here.
Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46.

A mirage is real. It is just that we may ignorantly assume that it is something other than it is really is. Following that, the sense of self is like a mirage in that we assume that it is something other than it really is.

As a meditative experience -- and this does not involve any sort of conceptual thinking -- the sense of self can be seen in terms of the various aspects that make it up as it rises and falls as part of the process of experience that being mindfully attended to.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I don't actually see much point in trying to present reasoned arguments if you are going to resort to that silly strawperson nonsense.
retrofuturist wrote:
Furthermore, you have offered no coherent discussion of the point that has been made that thinking about a "complex concept" such as "one plus one is two" involves of a number of objects and processes. Simply saying that it is "an object of mind" is, at best, rather simplistic description.
I have explained it to a context sufficient for realisation of the three characteristics vis-a-vis the six consciousnesses and other schemas found in the Sutta Pitaka.
Sorry, I must have missed or misunderstood that explanation.
retrofuturist wrote: If you seek more edification beyond the Sutta Pitaka, by all means do so Mike - I was just curious about what you anticipated the practical benefits to be (given you so often state your interest is in "practice").
Nothing I have said in this thread is beyond the sutta pitaka.

I have explained what I see as the practical benefits above. To me it's the whole point of a large number of teachings, to understand by observation how these complex concepts (such as a self) are constructed, and I've given several examples.

Clearly they are not well-enough explained. Sorry about that, but I don't see how to add to them.

:namaste:
Mike
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 »

mikenz66 wrote: I have explained what I see as the practical benefits above. To me it's the whole point of a large number of teachings, to understand by observation how these complex concepts (such as a self) are constructed, and I've given several examples.

Clearly they are not well-enough explained. Sorry about that, but I don't see how to add to them.
In fact, there is no need, because what I have been trying to explain is discussed by Ven Nananada:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ad#p158385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nananada wrote:This passage indicates that papanca signifies the final stage in the process of sense-cognition. The term definitely concerns the grosser conceptual aspect of the process, since it is a consequent to 'vitakka' (reasoning) which presupposes language.

Hence we should determine how papanca differs from - nay, marks a development on - vitakka. The etymology of the word would help us at this point. Being derived from "pra + panc" it conveys meanings such as 'spreading out', 'expansion', 'diffuseness' and 'manifoldness'. The tendency towards proliferation in the realm of concepts may be described in any one of those terms, and this is probably the primary meaning of papanca.

....
:namaste:
Mike
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