YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice - Dhamma Wheel

Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:38 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:59 am

Hi Retro,

Were they "earlier" definitions and applications?
And how does one apply vittaka and vicara (as per your prefered definitions) without indulging in one's own mental proliferations?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:17 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:40 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:29 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:30 am

Thanks Retro

A few preliminary thoughts as I am in the process of organising the evening meal for my children...

With regards to the PED - my thinking is that it is less about providing the etymological sequence of how terms evolved and instead is providing a number of alternative definitions. The definition of Pali terms, it appears, is dependent on the context of usage. Hence, so many alternative variations in meaning for different words. So depending on context vitakka and vicara mean different things.


The material by Ven N is certainly very interesting. My original comment regarding papanca was in fact to contrast it against vicara if discursive thought was the preferred definition. How they are different and what the actual application of vitakka and vicara "look like" in actual practice and what strategies one employs to arrest the mind from the habit of indulging in Papanca. But from the material provided from "reality and concept" its looking like the Venerable's definition of Vicara and Vitakka looks like it is approaching that to which I engage in in anapana.

I'll come back to this later after I've got a few more brain cells to devote to your post.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Sylvester » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:50 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Sylvester » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:24 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:23 pm


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Kenshou » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:14 pm

It looks more like it's that through the practice of the satipatthanas one eventually comes to the point where vitakka and vicara are withdrawn, not that the satipatthanas must always be absent of those two to be proper, though it is a desired result.

It looks to me that the satipatthanas come into play starting with where it says "What four? Here, Ananda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body..." and so on, then continuing to go over several stages of development. As it says, one "who dwells with a mind well established in the four establishments of mindfulness, that such a one will perceive successively loftier stages of distinction", which is shown to eventually lead to the abandonment of vitakka and vicara.

The practice of the satipatthanas and anapanasati do certainly aim for the abandonment of vitakka and vicara, but I would question whether this means that these practices are only really being practiced when those factors aren't present, or if it's that their abandonment is a result of that practice, with that abandonment specifically occurring with entrance to the 2nd jhana where it is explicitly stated that they cease. Which I believe removes some of the difficulty in determining whether vitakka and vicara in the context of the 1st jhana must refer to something a little different.
Last edited by Kenshou on Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:53 pm


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Kenshou » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:59 pm

You could ask that in response to the bulk of the posts on this website, couldn't you? And it is an important question, but I was only commenting on the theory, here.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:20 pm


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:06 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:32 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:46 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:17 pm

Its interesting, Retro.
My understanding is that it is optimal to practice satipatthana from jhana. Optimal but not necessary. And what I've read indicates its more optimal to practice satipatthana from the base of first jhana as opposed to moment-to-moment concentration (or access). As to whether it is more optimal to practice jhana from first jhana rather than subsequent jhanas - I don't know. Unfortunately I don't have the majority of my library with me.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:29 pm

Greetings Ben,

I concur that it is "more optimal to practice satipatthana from the base of first jhana".

As for the "moment-to-moment concentration (or access)", I don't tend to think in those terms (I think you can guess why , without elaboration on my part 8-) ). I suspect the need to establish the notion of access-concentration as some kind of sub/pseudo-jhana may arise from the later tendency to make the first jhana more esteemed and exalted than it was originally designated to be in the suttas. That perception may however be completely wrong, as I haven't re-familiarised myself with the commentaries lately, so feel free to reject that statement out of hand if you know it to be otherwise.

Either way, it will be of interest to me as well if anyone has any Pali texts specifically pertaining to satipatthana beyond the first jhana (either as defined in the sutta or commentaries).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


Return to “General Theravāda Meditation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine