Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings
Well, plants do respond to various stimuli, but I'd argue that lacking a central nervous system, there's nowhere for them to "feel" pain.
What about Jellyfish?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Mexicali
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Re: Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

Post by Mexicali »

clw_uk wrote:Greetings
Well, plants do respond to various stimuli, but I'd argue that lacking a central nervous system, there's nowhere for them to "feel" pain.
What about Jellyfish?
I don't know enough about them to even speculate. My experience with jellyfish extends to eating them in China and being stung by them at the beach in California.
"We do not embrace reason at the expense of emotion. We embrace it at the expense of self-deception."
-- Herbert Muschamp
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pink_trike
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Re: Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

Post by pink_trike »

As late as the 1960s in the United States, surgery was routinely performed on infants without anesthesia - in the mistaken belief that infants didn't feel pain - it was believed that infants only had "instinctual responses to stimuli". Same with animals. I wonder if we are just as ignorant now regarding plants and pain. Many premodern, pre-agrarian people prayed for forgiveness when harvesting plants. Imo, we should err on the side of caution, given our deep estrangement from the natural world and our collective, consensually-shared psychosis that goes largely unnoticed.
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Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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Jechbi
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Re: Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

Post by Jechbi »

How about a scoby?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote:How about a scoby?
Who knows? There are whole worlds right here on Earth and within our body that we know nothing about - which doesn't stop us from pretending that we do. Premodern people believed that all life is sacred, and that great care should be taken in order to disturb the totality of worlds as little as possible. It would be awful convenient for humans if only one tiny slice of those worlds (human, and begrudgingly, animal) felt pain and all the others don't.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Fede
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Re: Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

Post by Fede »

Mexicali wrote:Well, plants do respond to various stimuli, but I'd argue that lacking a central nervous system, there's nowhere for them to "feel" pain. Additionally, animals (including humans) evolved a pain reaction as a way to avoid harm. A plant can't usually take any direct action to avoid that harm, so the pain reaction wouldn't function the same way. I think the 'distress' plants feel is more just something that primes them to deal with later damage, etc; not pain in the way we experience it, at least not meaningfully. Admittedly, I could be dead wrong here; I haven't gotten the impression that there's a consensus one way or another.

There are some plants that have evolved certain attributes to prevent themselves from being harmed... toxic sap, prickly leaves, distasteful hairy exteriors, spines....
But I somehow doubt this was a conscious decision on the part of the plant, thinking "hah! I'll show you! I'll grow nasty spines, or taste really disgusting! that'll larn ya!!"

Lettuce is evolved and adapted(by humans) from the dandelion.
Poptatoes belong to the same botanical group as deadly nightshade.
Many of the foods we use today, are adapted from plants that in their original state we would have veered away from.
Much medication comes from plants, aspirin and digitalis to name but two....

This is how we live constructively amongst our little green chloro-friends....

just tossing something into the salad bowl....(Don't get me started on tomatoes!! :D)

:namaste:
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Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by Sekha »

Some rules of the patimmokkha are set to keep mindful of not harming plants. But how far are they from other beings in terms of potentiality for enlightenment? Do they have a mind? Is there transmigration for plants? Can they somehow switch to animal life? I guess we could find cases of living beings about which it is difficult to decide whether they belong to the animal or to the vegetal reign... what do you think?
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bodom
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by bodom »

See these threads:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1204" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

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Sekha
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by Sekha »

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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retrofuturist
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dukkhanirodha ,

SN 23.2: Satta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Sekha
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by Sekha »

thank you
:anjali:
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Clueless Git
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by Clueless Git »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I guess we could find cases of living beings about which it is difficult to decide whether they belong to the animal or to the vegetal reign... what do you think?
'Lo Dukkhanirodha :smile:

I think it is hard enough to avoid harming that which CLEARLY belongs to the animal domain to make worrying about fine divides quite irrelevant.

Actualy I would go a bit further ...

There is a potential danger in worrying about the fine divides. It can lead to a mindset which goes something along the lines of this:

1. We cannot be sure that stuff which we cannot avoid harming (killing bacteria as we bathe, etc) does not belong in the animal domain.

ergo ..

2. There is no 'real' difference twix taking a bath and slaughtering a herd of cows.
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Sekha
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by Sekha »

I understand, but the point for me was rather to know whether a particular being has a chance to become enlightened some time in the future or not.
:anjali:
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chownah
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by chownah »

Could it be possible that the Buddha prohibits monks from harming plant because having monks going around damaging plants (some of which were planted and tended even though it might not be obvious to a monk) would be a nuisance to a person or community and in general set a bad example for everyone in general and have nothing to do with plants having a potential to do anything?
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Re: Place of plants in the order of beings

Post by Stuart »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I understand, but the point for me was rather to know whether a particular being has a chance to become enlightened some time in the future or not.
:anjali:
Hi Dukkhanirodha :anjali:

I think that the idea that a "being" :quote: becomes enlightened may be a misunderstanding. There is certainly the enlightenment process, and we should encourage those "things" that are conducive to the process (The Noble Eightfold Path) wherever we see them enacted - either internally or externally, but to think that there is "one" who becomes enlightened is just a convention - all misconceived notions of "self" have been eliminated at enlightenment.

Part of the enlightenment process, as I understand it, is to recognize this.

Stuart
xxx
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