Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Let's consider SN 47.10 which discusses satipatthana and some of its obstacles
What you quoted here appears to relate to the transition between first to second jhana. This is based on the selections of your quote that I have bolded below.
It may be expected of anyone, Ananda—whether bhikkhu or bhikkhuni—who dwells with a mind well established in the four establishments of mindfulness, that such a one will perceive successively loftier stages of distinction.

What four? Here, Ananda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly.

That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born.

When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: 'The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.' So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine (na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti). He understands: 'Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.'

Sylvester wrote:So, here we have a clear statement that even the satipatthanas are supposed to be void of vitakka and vicara

It only shows that the "loftier" states (i.e. second jhana onwards) are devoid of vipaka and vicara. If it shows anything (and I don't claim it to be so, or otherwise, though welcome the perspectives of members on this matter) it might be that satipatthana practice cannot be done from the 2nd jhana onwards. (In saying that I of course relate to jhanas as described in the sutta - not "vipassana-jhanas"). Why do I say that? Because it shows a switch in emphasis in cultivation from satipatthana to samatha.

Having disagreed with your initial assertions, I therefore do not accept the subsequent conclusions that follow.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
Sylvester wrote:So, here we have a clear statement that even the satipatthanas are supposed to be void of vitakka and vicara

It only shows that the "loftier" states (i.e. second jhana onwards) are devoid of vipaka and vicara. If it shows anything (and I don't claim it to be so, or otherwise, though welcome the perspectives of members on this matter) (In saying that I of course relate to jhanas as described in the sutta - it might be that satipatthana practice cannot be done from the 2nd jhana onwards.not "vipassana-jhanas"). Why do I say that? Because it shows a switch in emphasis in cultivation from satipatthana to samatha.
I have not heard of that (your comment in bold), but i could be wrong.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:I have not heard of that (your comment in bold)
Neither have I.

From memory, the "jhana boilerplate" text is typically given without direct correlation to a specific practice, which may make it difficult to discern conclusively from the texts, but the above quotation is certainly suggestive of a redirection of focus being required to move to the 2nd jhana if one had entered the 1st jhana through satipatthana activity.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Ben »

Its interesting, Retro.
My understanding is that it is optimal to practice satipatthana from jhana. Optimal but not necessary. And what I've read indicates its more optimal to practice satipatthana from the base of first jhana as opposed to moment-to-moment concentration (or access). As to whether it is more optimal to practice jhana from first jhana rather than subsequent jhanas - I don't know. Unfortunately I don't have the majority of my library with me.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

I concur that it is "more optimal to practice satipatthana from the base of first jhana".

As for the "moment-to-moment concentration (or access)", I don't tend to think in those terms (I think you can guess why , without elaboration on my part 8-) ). I suspect the need to establish the notion of access-concentration as some kind of sub/pseudo-jhana may arise from the later tendency to make the first jhana more esteemed and exalted than it was originally designated to be in the suttas. That perception may however be completely wrong, as I haven't re-familiarised myself with the commentaries lately, so feel free to reject that statement out of hand if you know it to be otherwise.

Either way, it will be of interest to me as well if anyone has any Pali texts specifically pertaining to satipatthana beyond the first jhana (either as defined in the sutta or commentaries).

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

Kenshou wrote: The practice of the satipatthanas and anapanasati do certainly aim for the abandonment of vitakka and vicara, but I would question whether this means that these practices are only really being practiced when those factors aren't present, or if it's that their abandonment is a result of that practice, with that abandonment specifically occurring with entrance to the 2nd jhana where it is explicitly stated that they cease. Which I believe removes some of the difficulty in determining whether vitakka and vicara in the context of the 1st jhana must refer to something a little different.

Yes, I agree. The borders of the samadhikkhandha are not clearly staked out. But, I suspect, that to the extent that kusalasankappa are present when one is meditating, that would fall within the Sammavayama factor, rather than the Sammasati factor.

One just oscillates between the 2, until the mind is truly settled.

And certainly, as Retro posts, SN 22.59 does seem to lay out a practice that contains a fair bit of "mental chatter" as it were. However, my objection to his reliance on that sutta is two-fold -

1. this practice was outlined in that sutta as pertaining to the ariyasavaka, ie Stream Enterer and above;
2. the outcome of this practice is Nibbida, a very advanced stage of practice that again is limited to ariyasavakas.

This is not vanilla Sammasati. I do not see a single reference to Nibbida or nibbindati in the Satipatthanasamyutta.
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

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Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:And certainly, as Retro posts, SN 22.59 does seem to lay out a practice that contains a fair bit of "mental chatter" as it were. However, my objection to his reliance on that sutta is two-fold -

1. this practice was outlined in that sutta as pertaining to the ariyasavaka, ie Stream Enterer and above
In connection with this objection, the same instruction can be found in...

MN 28: Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta makes no reference to the audience being ariya, and if anything, the fact it is delivered by Sariputta lends further suggestion that they are not necessarily ariya.
Nyanaponika Thera wrote:It is said that whenever Sariputta gave advice, he showed infinite patience; he would admonish and instruct up to a hundred or a thousand times, until his pupil was established in the Fruition of stream-entry. Only then did he discharge him and give his advice to others. Very great was the number of those who, after receiving his instruction and following it faithfully, attained to Arahatship. In the Sacca-vibhanga Sutta (Majjh. 141) the Buddha says: "Sariputta is like a mother who brings forth, while Moggallana is like a nurse of that which has been brought forth. Sariputta trains to the Fruit of stream-entry, and Moggallana trains to the highest goal."
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el090.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:
What you quoted here appears to relate to the transition between first to second jhana. This is based on the selections of your quote that I have bolded below.
It may be expected of anyone, Ananda—whether bhikkhu or bhikkhuni—who dwells with a mind well established in the four establishments of mindfulness, that such a one will perceive successively loftier stages of distinction.

What four? Here, Ananda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly.

That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born.

When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: 'The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.' So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine (na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti). He understands: 'Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.'
Unfortunately, your interpretation would run up against DN 9, which discusses the role of "thinking" in respect of each of the "peaks of perception" (saññagga) represented by the Jhanas and further attainments. In 1st Jhana, sensual perception ceases, and is replaced by the perception of pitisukha born of seclusion. What holds for each of these peaks of perception is this -
cetayamānassa me pāpiyo, acetayamānassa me seyyo. Ahañceva kho pana ceteyyaṃ, abhisaṅkhareyyaṃ, imā ca me saññā nirujjheyyuṃ, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā uppajjeyyuṃ; yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ na ca abhisaṅkhareyyan’ti
"Thinking" destroys the subtle perception of the attainment and brings back the "gross" (oḷārikā ) perception that had been transcended. If one thinks in 1st Jhana, sensual perceptions simply rush back in and that's the end of that 1st Jhana.

To my simple mind, "vitakka" is just one of those polysemous words that admits of degrees and differences of meaning. It all depends on context.
Last edited by Sylvester on Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:And certainly, as Retro posts, SN 22.59 does seem to lay out a practice that contains a fair bit of "mental chatter" as it were. However, my objection to his reliance on that sutta is two-fold -

1. this practice was outlined in that sutta as pertaining to the ariyasavaka, ie Stream Enterer and above
In connection with this objection, the same instruction can be found in...

MN 28: Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta makes no reference to the audience being ariya, and if anything, the fact it is delivered by Sariputta lends further suggestion that they are not necessarily ariya.
Nyanaponika Thera wrote:It is said that whenever Sariputta gave advice, he showed infinite patience; he would admonish and instruct up to a hundred or a thousand times, until his pupil was established in the Fruition of stream-entry. Only then did he discharge him and give his advice to others. Very great was the number of those who, after receiving his instruction and following it faithfully, attained to Arahatship. In the Sacca-vibhanga Sutta (Majjh. 141) the Buddha says: "Sariputta is like a mother who brings forth, while Moggallana is like a nurse of that which has been brought forth. Sariputta trains to the Fruit of stream-entry, and Moggallana trains to the highest goal."
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el090.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Silence could just as easily be interpreted to mean that the audience were ariyasavaka. And while the Ven Sariputta was compared to the mid-wife, I don't see why that should preclude him from taking others all the way.
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Silence could just as easily be interpreted to mean that the audience were ariyasavaka. And while the Ven Sariputta was compared to the mid-wife, I don't see why that should preclude him from taking others all the way.
It doesn't, but you're clutching at straws here.

(Re: DN 9, I'll have a look at it later and get back to you)

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

Straws, moi?

Respectfully, the one misreading MN 28 is the one clutching at straws.
evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṃ
Can you find any suttas that speak of the putthujana having sammappaññā?
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Can you find any suttas that speak of the putthujana having sammappaññā?
Can you provide an English translation for the Pali tract of text you quote?

Ditto with the part of DN 9 I'm supposed to be looking at - the suttas of the Digha Nikaya are hardly known for their brevity, so some indication as to where you're looking would be helpful. Regardless, whatever your reasons for finding it problematic, ven. Thanissaro was comfortable translating vitakka as thought in DN 9. You may claim he is in error, but at least directly acknowledge that you are doing so.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:When you move from the first to the second jhana, you let go of verbal fabrication, and your relationship to the breath changes. Singleness of preoccupation is a factor of all the levels of jhana, but when you get into the second jhana, the Buddha uses a new term: unification. In unification, it feels as if your awareness and the breath become one. It's not as if you're sitting outside of the breath kneading it through the body; you're immersed in a lake with the cool water of a spring welling up inside. You're actually one with the breath. You don't have to adjust it anymore; you don't have to evaluate it anymore. Things begin to meld together, merge together, and actually stay that way all the way up through the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is what happens when you let go of the verbal fabrication of directed thought and evaluation.
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ions5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Extract from...

SN 36.11: Rahogata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"There are these six calmings. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has been calmed. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have been calmed. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been calmed. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been calmed. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have been calmed. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has been calmed, aversion has been calmed, delusion has been calmed."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Extract from...

SN 36.11: Rahogata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"There are these six calmings. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has been calmed. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have been calmed. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been calmed. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been calmed. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have been calmed. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has been calmed, aversion has been calmed, delusion has been calmed."

Metta,
Retro. :)
It's all too easy, Retro, to simply cut-&-paste a translation from ATI to bolster your case.

Unfortunately, the task is not that simple, not when the dispute hinges on the meaning and translation of vitakka-vicara. If it were that simple, all I need is to brandish BB and Ven Analayo's comments on what vitakka-vicara mean, in the context of the Jhanas and MN 44. I would have thought we should have outgrown such naive citations of translations, when the translations are themselves the subject of dispute.

Re your request for the corresponding English phrase in MN 28, it's -
Taṃ netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti – evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṃ.

And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self."
Sammappaññā is not simple theoretical knowledge, but something borne out of a deeply experiential touching of the truth. I can think of no better sutta which describes the place of sammappaññā than MN 8, which seems to equate sammappaññā with the destruction of one of the lower Fetters, which event defines Stream Entry -
"Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which these views arise, in which they underlie and become active, is seen with right wisdom (sammappaññā) as it actually is, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self' — then the abandoning of these views, their discarding, takes place in him [who thus sees].
Sammappaññā is not a way of contemplating the khandhas, or the method to Stream-Entry. It is Stream-Entry itself.

As for the DN 9 passage, you could use this from ATI-
'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?'
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
sylvester wrote:It's all too easy, Retro, to simply cut-&-paste a translation from ATI to bolster your case. Unfortunately, the task is not that simple, not when the dispute hinges on the meaning and translation of vitakka-vicara.
Let us cast the net further then, shall we? Earlier, the following MN 44 translation met with your dissatisfaction...
Nanananda wrote:Having first had the initial thought and discursive thought, one subsequently utters a speech, therefore initial and discursive thought is an activity of speech"."
Slyvester wrote:It is certainly possible to translate the Pali in such a free manner, but the Pali does not discuss the nouns, but the denominative verbs vitakketi and vicareti instead. Should it make a difference?
Let us then see how some other translators address this particular sentence...
Bodhi / Nanamoli wrote:First one applies thought and sustains thought, and subsequently one breaks out into speech; that is why applied thought and sustained thought are the verbal formation
Nanavira Thera wrote:First, friend Visākha, having thought and pondered, afterwards one breaks into speech; that is why thinking-&-pondering are speech-determination.
Sister Upalavanna wrote:Friend, Visaaka, earlier having thought and pondered, someone breaks into speech, therefore thinking and pondering are verbal determinations.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications.
Are all these translators in error? What sayeth our local Pali savant?
sylvester wrote:I think, sometimes, the over-wrought and complicated explanation may be worthwhile pursuing.
Yes, it would seem that is your inclination.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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