Lineage

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Lineage

Postby chownah » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:04 pm

I've been doing some studying on the concept of lineage as it might apply to the body of monks as described in the Pali texts. I have done some looking in English translations of Pali texts but can't seem to find any reference to the concept of lineage in relationship to the body of monks or in relationship to the Buddha.

It was suggested that the Pali word "vamsa" meant lineage but as far as I can tell what it really means is "tradition". I have tried some of the on line dictionaries and have had no success. I only have a dial up modem and the search is a bit tedious. Can someone find a dictionary definition of "vamsa" and post it here? Also, can someone find the Pali word for "lineage" if it turns out that "vamsa" is indeed not correct? Or, does anyone know of some word other than "lineage" which might convey the same meaning or some similar meaning which I might add to my studies?

Thanks for your time,
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Re: Lineage

Postby robertk » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:19 pm

sasana
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Re: Lineage

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:36 pm

chownah wrote:Can someone find a dictionary definition of "vamsa" and post it here?


tradition, also: usage
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Re: Lineage

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Sāsana: lit. 'message': the Dispensation of the Buddha, the Buddhist religion; teaching, doctrine.

navanga-Buddha or satthu-sāsana the ninefold Dispensation of the Buddha or the Master consists of suttas sutta mixed prose geyya exegesis veyyākarana verses gāthā solemn utterances udāna sayings of the Blessed One itivuttaka birth stories jātaka extraordinary things abbhutadhamma and analysis vedalla This classification is often found in the suttas e.g. M. 22. According to the commentaries, also the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma Pitaka are comprised in that ninefold division see Atthasālini Tr., I, 33. It is a classification according to literary styles, and not according to given texts or books.

(Maha Thera Nyanatiloka. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, Buddhist Publication Society, first edition 1952)
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Re: Lineage

Postby Mr Man » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:50 pm

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Re: Lineage

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:23 am


Mr Man,
Thanks for that. Samvasa is a very interesting concept and I'm going to give it some thought and study...it doesn't seem to bear directly on what I'm pursuing but at first glance seems to have a strong indirect implication.
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Re: Lineage

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:33 am

I found the term "lineage" used in reference to snakes:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
AN 4.67 PTS: A ii 72
Ahina Sutta: By a Snake
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"......Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. ........"
Does someone know the word in Pali for "lineage" as used here......and how it is defined or meant to be understood?
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Re: Lineage

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:51 am

chownah wrote:I found the term "lineage" used in reference to snakes:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
AN 4.67 PTS: A ii 72
Ahina Sutta: By a Snake
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"......Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. ........"
Does someone know the word in Pali for "lineage" as used here......and how it is defined or meant to be understood?
chownah
Why do you want to know?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:03 am

chownah wrote:I found the term "lineage" used in reference to snakes:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
AN 4.67 PTS: A ii 72
Ahina Sutta: By a Snake
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"......Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. ........"
Does someone know the word in Pali for "lineage" as used here......and how it is defined or meant to be understood?
chownah

Hello chownah,

The alternate translation for this sutta by uses the term Tribe:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

with metta
Chris
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Re: Lineage

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:17 am

Ven Thanissaro's translations are okay, but not great.

four royal snake lineages: cattāri ahirājakulāni

kula is the word he is translating as lineage.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 1:735.pali

Kula

Kula (nt.; but poetic pl. kulā Pv ii.943 [Idg. *qṷel (revolve); see under kaṇṭha, cakka and carati] 1. clan, a high social grade, "good family," cp. Gr. (doric) fua/, Goth. kuni. A collection of cognates and agnates, in sense of Ohg. sippa, clan; "house" in sense of line or descent (cp. House of Bourbon, Homeric gene/h). Bdhgh at Vism 91 distinguishes 2 kinds of kulāni, viz. ñātikulaŋ & upaṭṭhāka -- kulaŋ. -- 1. A ii.249 (on welfare and ill -- luck of clans); Sn 144; 711; It 109 sq. (sabrahmakāni, etc.); Dh 193. -- brāhmaṇa˚ a Brahmanic family A v.249; J iv.411, etc.; vāṇija˚ the household of a trader J iii.82; kassaka˚ id. of a farmer J ii.109; purāṇaseṭṭhi˚ of a banker J vi.364; upaṭṭhāka˚ (Sāriputtassa) a family who devoted themselves to the service of S. Vin i.83; sindhava˚ VvA 280. -- uccākula of high descent Pv iii.116, opp. nīca˚ of mean birth Sn 411 (cp. ˚kulīno); viz. caṇḍālakula, nesāda˚, veṇa˚, etc. M ii.152=A i.107=ii.85=iii.385=Pug 51; sadisa˚ a descent of equal standing PvA 82; kula -- rūpa -- sampanna endowed with "race" and beauty PvA 3, 280. -- 2. household, in the sense of house; kulāni people DhA i.388; parakulesu among other people Dh 73; parakule do. VvA 66; kule kule appaṭibaddhacitto not in love with a particular family Sn 65; cp. kule gaṇe āvāse (asatto or similar terms) Nd2 on taṇhā iv. -- devakula temple J ii.411; rāja˚ the king's household. palace J i.290; iii.277; vi.368; kulāni bahutthikāni (=bahuitthikāni, bahukitthī˚ A iv.278) appapurisāni "communities in which there are many women but few men" Vin ii.256=S ii.264=A iv.278; ñāti -- kula (my) home Vv 3710 (: pitugehaŋ sandhāya VvA 171).
-- angāra "the charcoal of the family" i. e. one who brings a family to ruin, said of a squanderer S iv.324 (text kulangāroti: but vv. ll. show ti as superfluous); printed kulanguro (for kul -- ankuro? v. l. kulangāro) kulapacchimako (should it be kulapacchijjako? cp. vv. ll. at J iv.69) dhanavināsako J vi.380. Also in kulapacchimako kulagaro pāpadhammo J iv.69. Both these refer to an avajāta putta. Cp. also kulassa angārabhūta DhA iii.350; Sn A 192 (of a dujjāto putto), and kulagandhana; -- itthi a wife of good descent,


-- 223 --
together with kuladhītā, ˚kumārī, ˚suṇhā, ˚dāsī at Vin ii.10; A iii.76; Vism 18. -- ûpaka (also read as ˚upaka, ˚ûpaga; ˚upaga; for ûpaga, see Trenckner, P.M. 62, n. 16; cp. kulopaka Divy 307) frequenting a family, dependent on a (or one & the same) family (for alms, etc.); a friend, an associate. Freq. in formula kulūpako hoti bahukāni kulāni upasankamati, e. g. Vin iii.131, 135; iv.20. -- Vin i.192, 208; iii.84, 237; v.132; S ii.200 sq.; A iii.136, 258 sq.; Pv iii.85; Vism 28; DA i.142 (rāja˚); PvA 266. f. kulūpikā (bhikkhunī) Vin ii.268; iv.66; -- gandhana at It 64 and kule gandhina at J iv.34 occur in the same sense and context as kulangāra in J. -- passages on avajāta -- putta. The It -- MSS. either explain k -- gandhana by kulacchedaka or have vv. ll. kuladhaŋsana and kusajantuno. Should it be read as kulangāraka? Cp. gandhina; -- geha clanhouse, i. e. father's house DhA i.49. -- tanti in kulatantikulapaveṇi -- rakkhako anujāto putto "one who keeps up the line & tradition of the family" J vi.380; -- dattika (and ˚dattiya) given by the family or clan J iii.221 (˚sāmika); iv.146 (where DhA i.346 reads ˚santaka), 189 (˚kambala); vi.348 (pati). -- dāsī a female slave in a respectable family Vin ii.10; VvA 196; -- dūsaka one who brings a family into bad repute Sn 89; DhA ii.109; -- dvāra the door of a family Sn 288; -- dhītā the daughter of a respectable family Vin ii.10; DhA iii.172; VvA 6; PvA 112; -- pasāda the favour received by a family, ˚ka one who enjoys this favour A i.25, cp. SnA 165, opp. of kuladūsaka; -- putta a clansman, a (young) man of good family, fils de famille, cp. Low Ger. haussohn; a gentleman, man of good birth. As 2nd characteristic of a Brahmin (with sujāto as 1st) in formula at D i.93, 94≈; Vin i.15, 43, 185, 288, 350; M i.85≈(in kāmānaŋ ādīnavo passage), 192, 210, 463; A ii.249; J i.82; vi.71; It 89; VvA 128; PvA 12, 29; -- macchariya selfishness concerning one's family, touchiness about his clan D iii.234 (in list of 5 kinds of selfishness); also to be read at Dhs 1122 for kusala˚; -- vaŋsa lineage, progeny M ii.181; A iii.43; iv.61; DA i.256; expressions for the keeping up of the lineage or its neglect are: ˚ṭhapana D iii.189; PvA 5; nassati or nāseti J iv.69; VvA 149; upacchindati PvA 31, 82; -- santaka belonging to one's family, property of the clan J i.52; DhA i.346 (where J iv.146 reads ˚dattika).


Vaŋsa

Vaŋsa [Vedic vaŋśa reed, bamboo (R.V.)] 1. a bamboo Sn 38 (vaŋso visālo va; vaŋso expld at Nd2 556 as "veḷugumba," at SnA 76 as "veḷu"), ibid. (˚kaḷīra);
J vi.57; Vism 255 (˚kaḷīra); KhA 50 (id.). -- 2. race, lineage, family A ii.27 (ariya˚ of noble family); S v.168 (caṇḍāla˚); J i.89, 139; iv.390 (caṇḍāla˚); v.251 (uju˚); Mhvs 4, 5 (pitu -- ghātaka -- vaŋso a parricidal race). -- 3. tradition, hereditary custom, usage, reputation Miln 148 (ācariya˚), 190 (Tathāgatānaŋ); KhA 12 (Buddha˚); Dpvs 18, 3 (saddhamma˚ -- kovidā therā). -- vaŋsaŋ nāseti to break family tradition J v.383; vaŋsaŋ ucchindati id. J v.383; or upacchindati J iv.63; opp. patiṭṭhāpeti to establish the reputation J v.386. -- 4. dynasty Mhvs 36, 61 (kassa v. ṭhassati). -- 5. a bamboo flute, fife Miln 31; VvA 210. -- 6. a certain game, at D i.6 in enumn of pastimes and tricks (caṇḍālavaŋsa -- dhopana), a passage which shows an old corruption. Bdhgh at DA i.84 takes each word separately and expls vaŋsa as "veṇuŋ ussāpetvā kīḷanaŋ" (i. e. a game consisting in raising a bamboo; is it climbing a pole? Cp. vaŋsa -- ghatikā "a kind of game" Divy 475), against Dial. i.9 "acrobatic feats by Caṇḍālas." Cp. J iv.390 in same passage. Franke (Dīgha trsln) has "bamboo -- tricks"; his conjecture as "vaŋsa -- dhamanaŋ," playing the bamboo pipe (cp. Miln 31: "vaŋsadhamaka"), as oldest reading is to be pointed out. <-> On vaŋsa in similes see J.P.T.S. 1907, 134.
-- āgata come down fr. father to son, hereditary Mhvs 23, 85. -- ânupālaka guarding tradition Sdhp 474 (ariya˚). -- ânurakkhaka preserving the lineage, carrying on the tradition J iv.444; Vism 99 (+paveṇi -- pālaka); DhA iii.386. -- coraka N. of a certain kind of reed (cp. coraka: plant used for perfume) J v.406 (C. for veḷuka). -- ja belonging to a race Mhvs 1, 1 (suddha˚). -- ñña born of good family A ii.27. -- dhara upholding tradition Miln 164. -- dharaṇa id. Miln 226. -- nalaka bamboo reed KhA 52, 59 (with note Sn Index p. 870: naḷaka). -- nāḷa id. Miln 102. -- rāga the colour of bamboo, a term for the veḷuriya gem J iv.141. -- vaṇṇa the veḷuriya gem Abhp 491


Kulavaŋsa is lineage. There is noithing here that suggest it is used for the monastic sangha. So, what is your point here with these two half-baked threads?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:34 am

tiltbillings,
THANK YOU SO MUCH....this is wonderful....it seems that both of these words might be applied to monks and be translated as "lineage" in English.

Thanks again,
chownah
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Re: Lineage

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:36 am

chownah wrote:tiltbillings,
THANK YOU SO MUCH....this is wonderful....it seems that both of these words might be applied to monks and be translated as "lineage" in English.

Thanks again,
chownah
Maybe, but I have no idea what you mean by lineage, so I would not even come close to agreeing with you until you tell us what you think the word means.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:41 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:tiltbillings,
THANK YOU SO MUCH....this is wonderful....it seems that both of these words might be applied to monks and be translated as "lineage" in English.

Thanks again,
chownah
Maybe, but I have no idea what you mean by lineage, so I would not even come close to agreeing with you until you tell us what you think the word means.

You have used the word "lineage" in the "Lineage of monks" thread as if you had some meaning in mind and since I have said that I am interested in everyone's meanings for "lineage" then I hope it is clear that whatever meaning you were using when you used "lineage" would be perfectly adequate for the purposes of the discusssion....and by the way there really is no reason why you should agree with me....if you don't then that's fine....I do appreciate your having brought the two Pali words which I can associate with the English word "lineage".....since you have no idea what I mean by "lineage" it must be by some incredible stroke of good luck that from among the ocean of Pali words you picked out two that both resonate with me.....what are the odds of this happening?
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Re: Lineage

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:26 pm

chownah wrote:since you have no idea what I mean by "lineage" it must be by some incredible stroke of good luck that from among the ocean of Pali words you picked out two that both resonate with me.....what are the odds of this happening?
chownah
I picked out two words from a crappy translation by Ven Thanissaro.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Lineage

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:since you have no idea what I mean by "lineage" it must be by some incredible stroke of good luck that from among the ocean of Pali words you picked out two that both resonate with me.....what are the odds of this happening?
chownah
I picked out two words from a crappy translation by Ven Thanissaro.

What was the text you took the words from? I guess it is no surprise that words chosen from a crappy translation would resonate with me! :tongue:
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