YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Lineage of monks - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Lineage of monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
cittaanurakkho
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:12 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby cittaanurakkho » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:35 pm

Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?

Assuming "teach" as dhamma vinnaya, then let's consider two scenarios:
1. Suppose there is no monks left in the world today to perform ordination or there is an insufficient quorum of monks. In this case, there is no alternative procedure or even an exception in the Vinaya to initiate a lineage, which is another words of saying that the Buddha did not established a procedure to restart his lineage once the members falls below a limit (5). Thus the Buddha asserted that he is the only one that could initiate his lineage in this eon. Untill Maetreya come along to established Meatreya lineage.

2. Suppose there are many Mahayana monks in the world today and only 4 Theravadins monks left in the world. I don't think the Vinaya prohibit the Theravadins monk from borrowing one Mahayana monk to perform Theravadin ordination. But this scenario is riddle with a paradox. If the 4 Theravadins consider themself as a distinct lineage from the Mahayana, then technically they are re-initialing Theravadins lineage with the help of a Mahayana monk. Thus re-initiating the lineage without the Buddha. Yet, having asked the Mahayana monk for help, can the Theravadins really consider themself a distinct lineage seperate from the Mahayana? So what is a lineage?

For this reason, I think the original question only make sense with scenario #1. For other scenario (including the state of Buddhism in the world today), it is an improperly frame question. Consider the fact that for all of his 40 years of ministry, the Buddha tried hard, formulated rules to prevent the breaks up of his lineage into various factions. So, why would he formulate a rule regarding initialing a lineage of monks when there were only one lineage when he is still alive. And usually he formulated a rule adhock: only when there is an incident.

Perhaps some rules are best left unformulated.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:57 pm


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:57 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:27 am


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:59 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:28 am


Gena1480
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby Gena1480 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:42 am

Chownah
your question should be
Can only Buddha turn the wheel of Dhamma
the answer is yes
creating the rules for ordination of monks is part
of turning the wheel of Dhamma
so for your question
can only Buddha establish a lineage of monks
regarding Dhamma and Discipline then the answer is yes.
metta

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:35 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:42 am


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:54 am

Over in the Pali Language forum I have been asking for Pali words for "lineage" ad tiltbillings has come up with two great ones I'll reproduce only part of each definition because they are rather long and if someone wants to see the entire text of both translations they are over in the Pali forum in the topic "Lineage".

1. Kula

Kula (nt.; but poetic pl. kulā Pv ii.943 [Idg. *qṷel (revolve); see under kaṇṭha, cakka and carati] 1. clan, a high social grade, "good family," cp. Gr. (doric) fua/, Goth. kuni. A collection of cognates and agnates, in sense of Ohg. sippa, clan; "house" in sense of line or descent ...........
.........."

2. Vaŋsa [Vedic vaŋśa reed, bamboo (R.V.)] 1. a bamboo Sn 38 (vaŋso visālo va; vaŋso expld at Nd2 556 as "veḷugumba," at SnA 76 as "veḷu"), ibid. (˚kaḷīra);
J vi.57; Vism 255 (˚kaḷīra); KhA 50 (id.). -- 2. race, lineage, family A ii.27 (ariya˚ of noble family); S v.168 (caṇḍāla˚); J i.89, 139; iv.390 (caṇḍāla˚); v.251 (uju˚); Mhvs 4, 5 (pitu -- ghātaka -- vaŋso a parricidal race). -- 3. tradition, hereditary custom, usage, reputation........
............."

For me these two words seem to convey some of the meaning of "lineage" as is commonly used in English.....so......since I want to learn about my third question which is whether the Buddha ever used a concept of lineage with respect to monks then I guess if someone could come up with a reference where the Buddha used either of those two terms concerning the body of monks then this would show that the Buddha was indeed thinking of the body of monks in terms of lineage......what do others think about this approach?

chownah

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:57 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:01 am


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:51 pm


cittaanurakkho
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:12 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby cittaanurakkho » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:38 pm


cittaanurakkho
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:12 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby cittaanurakkho » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:48 pm

chownah,

In regard to your summary, you said "...he did in effect create a situation where only he could initiate his lineage......but you are applying it to HIS lineage". I like to use one Bodhi tree as the analogy. If lineages are the branches and twigs, than Buddha is the trunk of the Bodhi tree. Any other branches and twigs of the Bodhi tree are still the Bodhi tree.

Again the vinaya is formulated adhoc later on. It is difficult to justify the statement that he "...defined the ordination of monks so that only he could initiate HIS lineage...", implying some sort of preoccupation with lineage or with who can initiate what. I think it is more appropriate to say that the ordination procedure is established for a long term survival of the dhamma in a living community. Once the community is dead (defined as less than 5 monks) than there is no procedure for reviving it. No zombie.

Regarding "...Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?"

I don't know any reference to that. Dhammacakkappavattana is the first sermon and the five acetics are his first group of monks. I believe they become monks simply by his unceremonious invitation: "Ehi Bhikkhu".

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:19 pm


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:32 am


User avatar
vkasdn
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:26 am

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby vkasdn » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:36 am

maybe im completely off, and dont get it....but

back in the Buddha's day, the only lineage that existed were those who listened to his teachings, and applied the effort to put the teachings into practice...this was undoubtedly initiated by the Buddha resulting from his unique realization into the nature of conditionality....Since we know this lineage has been initiated, how then can it again be initiated?

Seems that anyone can initiate a lineage, but it will not be a lineage connected to the Buddha's dhamma, it would just be someone else's interpretation....why would anyone want to initiate a new lineage? It seems to me, that a new lineage would require a perversion of what is already founded...

so lets think, during the time of the Buddha, if there is only one community of followers, what possibility would there be to initiate more lineages? and why would one even consider doing so at that time??

i cannot think of what else you might mean...it almost seems like you are asking if only the Buddha can start the Buddhist order....in which case i would say yes... :twothumbsup:

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:39 pm


chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:35 pm

I have been thinking about the quote I presented a couple of posts back, that quote being:

""Your majesty," the Buddha replied, "I now belong, not to the lineage of my family, but to the lineage of the noble ones. Theirs are the customs I follow.""

I'm trying to learn more about this quote in the "incident in the buddha's life" thread over in the general theravada discussion forum....over there it was suggested that this came from the Dhammapadatthakatha but not sure.

Anyway...as you can see this is a usage of "lineage"...actually two usages....but also notice that neither instance of its usage refers to monkhood.....and what specifically I have been thinking about is that the Buddha chooses to say that he belongs to the lineage of noble ones....he does not choose to say that he belongs to a lineage of monks. So far no one has brought a Pali reference where the Buddha talks about a "lineage of monks" or even uses the word "lineage" in any way with respect to monks. Yet, here the Buddha uses the word lineage twice which shows that it was a concept that he used.....but not in relation to monks I guess...AND...more importantly the Buddha is stating that he is part of a lineage...but again this is not a lineage of monks.....for people who use the term "lineage of monks I would like to know if they consider the Buddha to be part of that lineage or not.....so far I can find no evidence that the Buddha thought of himself that way.....here he chooses to say he is in the lineage of noble ones...and it is their customs that he follows....he does not say that he follows the customs of the monks.....I don't have any solid conclusions to draw from this but really I find it a bit surprising that the Buddha seems to never have talked about a lineage of monks and he himself identifies with a lineage of noble ones and it is not the customs of monks he follows but rather the customs of the noble ones.....
chownah


Return to “Ordination and Monastic Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine