Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

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Sylvester
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

Naturally I'm happy with BB's translation. You omitted to mention his caution in his SN that vitakka-vicara in the context of Jhana does not mean thought in the ordinary sense of word. Perhaps you missed the fact that BB equates vitakka-vicara with sankappa = intention?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,

If you're going to make an Appeal To Patchwork, rather than telling me what I "omitted to mention", perhaps you could bring your argument forward more transparently. As it stands, your last post gives no basis upon which anyone could make further investigation into your claims.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Sammappaññā is not a way of contemplating the khandhas, or the method to Stream-Entry. It is Stream-Entry itself.
The relevance to Ben's enquiry being what exactly...?

Are you suggesting that certain practices taught by Sariputta and the Buddha should not be attempted prior to Stream Entry?

Or are you saying the culmination of these practices leads to stream-entry (which should serve as a motivation, rather than demotivation for undertaking them)?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sylvester,

If you're going to make an Appeal To Patchwork, rather than telling me what I "omitted to mention", perhaps you could bring your argument forward more transparently. As it stands, your last post gives no basis upon which anyone could make further investigation into your claims.

Metta,
Retro. :)
It's difficult to be generous, when you see fit to bring the debate down to this level of non-sequitor -
retrofuturist wrote:
sylvester wrote:
I think, sometimes, the over-wrought and complicated explanation may be worthwhile pursuing.
Yes, it would seem that is your inclination.
Oh well, I don't have to own your anusayas.

I don't have my copy of BB's SN handy, but perhaps recourse to Ven Analayo would not be out of line -

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... itakka.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: see pages 3 and 4.

Similar comments can be found at his "Satipaṭṭhāna: The direct path to realization", pp 75 -79.

As to the relevance of my discussion of "sammappaññā ", it has no relevance to Ben's query. It was directed at your reliance on MN 28 (in which sammappaññā was found), in support of your SN 22.59 interpretation.

As to whether these practices should or should not be developed prior to Stream-Entry, that's a non-starter. Your interpretation calls for a lot of conceptual chatter. To that extent, I would say it probably needs to shut-up, before it even comes close to perfect Sammasati. The avitakka authorities I cited can certainly be developed, and that seems to be how many modern teachers teach the satipatthanas. One cannot avoid thoughts and words when starting the practice, but one has to learn to drop the words to allow the satippathanas to deepen.

The problem with the simplistic reading is that it treat the "iti" markers that populate the satipatthana instructions and Jhana pericopes as denoting "thoughts" or thinking. While iti clitics can function to report direct speech or thoughts, or even show motive, these are not the only grammatical functions of the quotation marks in Pali. It also functions as subject/object complementisers, in this case the verb being either pajanati or vipassati. In Western language philosophy, the complementiser's function is fulfilled by the word "that" (he sees that A is B), whereas in Pali, the complementiser is framed with the iti markers instead (he sees "A is B"). I've said before that the contents of such complementisers in vipassana are sacca-s (truths).

If you look at any of the arupa attainement formulae, each base of the arupa is couched in iti markers. These are not thoughts, but perceptions as DN 9 explains. In fact, if you look closely, DN 9 explicates that each immaterial base is a "sukhumasaccasanna" (a subtle [but/and] true perception). What the "iti" is doing in these cases, be they satipatthanas or jhanas, is to demarcate a proposition that is true.
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,

Thanks for the Ven Analayo link. The synonym "application of the mind" seems reasonable in the sense that it is like a 'truncated' form of thought...
Analayo wrote:The interrelation between these two nuances of vitakka can also be seen in the realm of speech. Here vitakka is, together with vicara, a formation responsible for speaking, vacisankhara (M.I.301). In fact when speaking, at times one may verbally express something that has already been fully formulated in the mind, fully “thought” out. Yet, at other times there may just be a general sense of direction about what one is going to say and one still has to search the right words while speaking. This general sense of direction also falls within the range of meaning of vitakka, not only the fully formulated thoughts at those times when one has already planned one’s speech. This sense of a general direction, in the sense of an application of inclination of the mind, requires the support of vicara in order to be carried through.
As I understand it, sanna requires a 'frame' (being more properly defined as apperception, than perception), but that 'frame' doesn't need to be a rambling internal monologue. It could just be a well worn, habitual "anicca-frame" etc. that once upon a time (or in early stages) may involve the word "anicca" or "impermanent", but in time the word itself becomes an impediment to concentration and observation, and is therefore dropped... but the 'frame' which the word represented and facilitated is not dropped. Could the 'frame' be vicara, perhaps?
sylvester wrote:In Western language philosophy, the complementiser's function is fulfilled by the word "that" (he sees that A is B), whereas in Pali, the complementiser is framed with the iti markers instead (he sees "A is B"). I've said before that the contents of such complementisers in vipassana are sacca-s (truths).
Do you know of any translators who translate in the way you recommend, so we can compare how this plays out in practice?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Sylvester
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:
sylvester wrote:In Western language philosophy, the complementiser's function is fulfilled by the word "that" (he sees that A is B), whereas in Pali, the complementiser is framed with the iti markers instead (he sees "A is B"). I've said before that the contents of such complementisers in vipassana are sacca-s (truths).
Do you know of any translators who translate in the way you recommend, so we can compare how this plays out in practice?
I'll start with a meditation text where this can be contrasted. I don't know how old this translation is, but it was attributed to ATI by VRI -
Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to breathe out calming the bodily processes.
etc
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn118.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Pali, with all its iti-s, is -
Dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti; rassaṃ vā assasanto ‘rassaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṃ vā passasanto ‘rassaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti; ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.
The current translation on ATI preserves the iti clitic -
[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
To be fair and precise, the example above was probably a poor one, since the "iti" was not functioning as a complementiser, but to indicate goal or motive.

A good example of the complementiser that was recently discussed, is a doctrinal text, namely MN 38 here -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 17#p153428" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The contrast was in how Ajahn Thanissaro rendered the clitic, versus BB using the Western form of the complementiser.
Ajahn Thanissaro -
Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'?
versus MLDB -
"Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness?"
Someone who promoted a labelling approach to satipatthanas, based on the iti markers -

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03 ... llakkheti/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but he may have changed his mind more recently -

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(scroll down to his 11 Jul 11 entry)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,

Thanks.

Based on what I quoted above from Analayo, and if my paragraph following it holds water, the distinction "in practice" may merely be a matter of degrees... degrees which are difficult to capture in language without being pedantic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Retro

I think it may not be just an issue of degree. The Samanamandika Sutta talks of the disappearance of "sankappa" in the Jhanas, and Ven Analayo interprets "sankappa" to be "intention" (From Craving to Liberation, p.44). This disappearing act, if read together with MN 117, suggests that the vacisankhara at the very most basic level are intentions. I'm sure you're familiar the Nidana Samyutta's characterisation of the sankharas to comprise the 3 sankharas = 3 sancetanas, including vacisankhara.

In his "From Grasping to Emptiness", he calls the vacisankhara in 1st Jhana a "subtle mental ripple", p.124.
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Sylvester wrote:vacisankhara at the very most basic level are intentions.
Of course.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Nyana »

Sarvāstivāda, Sautrāntika, and Yogācāra ābhidharmikas consistently define vitakka & vicāra as two types of "mental discourse" (manojalpa, lit: "mind-talk"). For example, Vasubandhu defines vitakka as "mental discourse which investigates" (paryeṣako manojalpa) and vicāra as "mental discourse which reflects" (pratyavekṣako manojalpa). Vitakka is considered to be coarse (cittsyaudārikatā) and vicāra comparatively more subtle (cittsyasūkṣmatā). Compare with the Theravāda Peṭakopadesa, which gives a detailed word analysis of these terms in the context of the jhāna formula:
  • Vitakka is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Vicāra is like him simply contemplating it (anupassati). Vitakka is like non-comprehension (apariññā). Vicāra is like full comprehension (pariññā). Vitakka is the analytical understanding of language (niruttipaṭisambhidā) and the analytical understanding of knowledge (paṭibhānapaṭisambhidā). Vicāra is the analytical understanding of dhamma (dhammapaṭisambhidā) and the analytical understanding of meaning (atthapaṭisambhidā). Vitakka is the mind's skill in pleasantness. Vicāra is the mind's skill in endeavor. Vitakka is about this being skillful, this unskillful, about this to be developed, this to be abandoned, this to be verified. Vicāra is like the abandoning, the development, the verification.
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Ben »

Thanks Geoff,
That seems to suggest that the discursive thinking is part of Jhana (as per the texts you have cited). My question, originally to Retro, if that is so - what does that mean in actual practice? How does one maintain vitakka and vicara and not subside into papanca?
Thanks again,

Ben
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Nyana »

Ben wrote:That seems to suggest that the discursive thinking is part of Jhana (as per the texts you have cited). My question, originally to Retro, if that is so - what does that mean in actual practice? How does one maintain vitakka and vicara and not subside into papanca?
By keeping the mind on topic with the aids of appropriate effort (vāyāma) and mindfulness (sati) and plenty of consistent, repeated practice (bhāvanā). It's also worth noting that some meditation subjects (e.g. Buddhānussati, brahmavihārā, asubhasaññā, etc.) are more conducive to sustained mental repetition of phrases than others (ānāpānassati, paṭhavī kasiṇa, etc.).
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Ben »

Thanks again, Geoff

If I may ask another question...

Say, a practitioner take vitakka and vicara to mean initial application and sustained application of the mind on the object of meditation. And that same practitioner experiences a silencing of mind until no discursive thought it present.

What do you think is going on?

kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Nyana »

Ben wrote:What do you think is going on?
What I think is going on on this thread is a good example of semantic relativity due to a sematic shift of the definitions of vitakka, vicāra, & the other jhāna factors.
Ben wrote:Say, a practitioner take vitakka and vicara to mean initial application and sustained application of the mind on the object of meditation. And that same practitioner experiences a silencing of mind until no discursive thought it present.
What do you think Ben: Would that silent mind fulfill the criteria for a "second jhāna"?
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Re: Vitakka and Vicara in Jhana practice

Post by Ben »

I don't know Geoff.
I started this thread following a comment that Retro made - as captured in the OP. As it is very different from my own understanding and experience of samatha practice, I merely wished to explore the difference. With the aim of developing my understanding of the experience of others. If I can develop my understanding of another's experience then perhaps it will help me to better understand their point of view more generally. I'm not interested in debate or positioning myself or anything other than having an exchange on practice and experience with the aim of understanding that of others....And maybe my own as well.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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