the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

clw_uk wrote:
Ngawang Drolma wrote:What does the question, "What am I?" have to do with ascribing to post mortem becoming?

:anjali:
Mike was addresing that particular question since its a question about the present moment

However the question "what am i" can lead to speculative views about what happens after death since What am I? will lead to a search for a self and so, eventual identification and "I am" and then it can lead onto the other questions "what will i be in the future" or "was I in the past" and then onto the speculative views "i will live forever" or "i will be annihilated" or "i will be reborn" or "i wont be reborn" or "i will and wont be reborn" etc.....


All of which involves conciet and/or self view, ignorance, taints and the whole mass of dukkha

Instead of asking such questions, one focuses on what is

Dukkha
origin
quenching
path to quench

When this path is done, a "person" will see with proper wisdom
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."
Because he has seen "Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance" (and same for other khandas) there is no more clinging to them as self and so all the speculative views (which only come to be via clinging to the aggregates) no longer arise or apply

Metta
Thank you Craig, I'm trying to follow but I was getting lost :smile:
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pink_trike
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Mexicali wrote:The understanding that there is a connection of causation from "birth" to "birth", not one of identity, makes sense to me.
Me too :spy:
It makes perfect sense to me also, and is an integral part of the logic stream - within this life. It loses logical agency when it is extended into the "past" and "future", representing nothing more than speculation.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Mexicali wrote:The understanding that there is a connection of causation from "birth" to "birth", not one of identity, makes sense to me.
Yes, that's exactly my point. Putting aside the issue of rebirth for now, it seems to me that the idea is to see that the processes that take this collection of khandhas commonly known as "Mike" from the last second, yesterday, last year, or last decade, to the present moment are "not me, not mine, not my self". Neither are the processes that take it into the future.

Considering, for example, that: "this body used to be like this, now it is like that, soon it will be gone" is not the problem. It is, rather, part of the means for letting go...

Metta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey mike
Please don't keep projecting "asking these questions" into everything...

I take it that we have established that unwise attention to the past, future or present, is the problem?

Therefore, we no longer have to labour under the assumption that everything to do with thinking about the past the future is a problem. So, in considering whether something is wise or not, perhaps we can discuss the attention we are bringing to it, rather than jumping to conclusions based on temporal relationships.

Metta
Mike
The point is that rebirth view naturaly involves the unwise questions of "what will i become" or "what was i" etc. I also dont see how thinking about past or future has much to do with Dhamma practice, since Dhamma practice is about focusing on what is, 4nt and acknowledgement and investigation into that, deep investigation, until all dukkha is uprooted

Metta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote:
Mexicali wrote:The understanding that there is a connection of causation from "birth" to "birth", not one of identity, makes sense to me.
Yes, that's exactly my point. Putting aside the issue of rebirth for now, it seems to me that the idea is to see that the processes that take this collection of khandhas commonly known as "Mike" from the last second, yesterday, last year, or last decade, to the present moment are "not me, not mine, not my self". Neither are the processes that take it into the future.

Considering, for example, that: "this body used to be like this, now it is like that, soon it will be gone" is not the problem. It is, rather, part of the means for letting go...

Metta
Mike
And how do we understand not-self?

By focusing on what is

So by focusing on the present moment one sees and understands Anicca, one sees how clinging to khandas will bring dukkha (because of its inevitable change) and so wont see fit to cling to it and reguard it as "self" and so sees it as not-self, and so becomes dispassionate and, through non-clinging is released

Or by focusing on when there is dukkha, by seeing how that came to be via clinging to that which changes, becoming dispassionate towards that which was clung to (since one sees how it just makes more dukkha) and so not reguarding it as "me" and seeing it as not-self

Also in the process seeing of "self" or "me" is just coming from clinging

All about investigation in there here and now about what is, not what might be

(of course this will involve a deep investigation into the above via paticcasamuppāda)
Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote: And how do we understand not-self?
Well that's the key question. How is this achieved?

While I agree that the way most meditation techniques approach it is by attending to the present moment, that is only one factor of the Path, and it interacts with all the other factors, particularly Right View.

Metta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

Peter wrote:
It is only people on internet forums who are uncomfortable with rebirth teachings who say in response to questions about past and future lives "Never mind that. The Buddha didn't teach about that."
As an old fart, my experience and memory extend way back beyond the internet. For thirty-ish years I've been active in the Dharma community and have seen wave after wave of newbies express their discomfort with the rebirth teachings, and have heard many teachers say the equivalent of "never mind that...just practice".

What we do see a lot of on the internet is folks that insist on the primacy of rebirth to the path - something that before the internet teachers would slap down in a silly minute.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ben »

Hi all

I'm not really following this discussion closely so, I apologise if what I post below has already been mentioned. I'm reproducing the Fourteen Fundamental Buddhist Beliefs because, as you will see near the end of the quote, the concept of rebirth holding a central position in the Buddhadhamma was authenticated by a representative selection of senior Buddhist authorities and scholars from a number of traditions.
Colonel Olcott’s Fourteen Fundamental Buddhist Beliefs


I. Buddhists are taught to show the same tolerance, forbearance, and brotherly love to all men, without distinction; and an unswerving kindness towards the members of the animal kingdom.

II. The universe was evolved, not created; and it functions according to law, not according to the caprice of any god.

III. The truths upon which Buddhism is founded are natural. They have, we believe, been taught in successive kalpas, or world-periods, by certain illuminated beings called Buddhas, the name Buddha meaning "Enlightened."

IV. The fourth teacher in the present kalpa was Sakyamuni, or Gautama Buddha, who was born in a royal family in India about 2,500 years ago. He is a historical personage and his name was Siddhartha Gautama.

V. Sakyamuni taught that ignorance produces desire, unsatisfied desire is the cause of rebirth, and rebirth the cause of sorrow. To get rid of sorrow, therefore, it is necessary to escape rebirth, it is necessary to extinguish desire; and to extinguish desire, it is necessary to destroy ignorance.

VI. Ignorance fosters the belief that rebirth is a necessary thing. When ignorance is destroyed the worthlessness of every such rebirth, considered as an end in itself, is perceived, as well as the paramount need of adopting a course of life by which the necessity for such repeated rebirth, can be abolished. Ignorance also begets the illusive and illogical idea that there is only one existence for man, and the other illusion that this one life is followed by a state of unchangeable pleasure or torment.

VII. The dispersion of all this ignorance can be attained by the persevering practice of an all-embracing altruism in conduct, development of intelligence, wisdom in thought, and destruction of desire for the lower personal pleasures.

VIII. The desire to live being the cause of rebirth, when that is extinguished rebirths cease, and the perfected individual attains by meditation that highest state of peace called Nirvaana.

IX. Sakyamuni taught that ignorance can be dispelled and sorrow removed by the knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, that is,

1. Existence is misery;

2. The cause productive of misery is the desire ever-renewed of satisfying oneself, without being able ever to secure that end;

3. The destruction of that desire, or the estranging of oneself from it;

4. The means of obtaining this destruction of desire. The means which he pointed out are called the Noble Eightfold Path, that is, Right Belief, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Means of Livelihood, Right Exertion, Right Remembrance, Right Meditation.

X. Right Meditation leads to spiritual enlightenment, or the development of that Buddha-like faculty which is latent in every man.
XI. The essence of Buddhism, as summed up by the Tathaagata (Buddha) himself, consists in: desisting from all evil; acquiring virtue, purifying the heart.
XII. The universe is subject to a natural causation known as Karma. The merits and demerits of a being in his past existence determine his condition in the present one. Each man, therefore, has prepared the causes of the effect which he now experiences.
XIII. The obstacles to the attainment of good Karma may be removed by the observance of the following precepts, which are embraced in the moral code of Buddhism: (1) kill not; (2) steal not; (3) indulge not in forbidden sexual pleasure; (4) lie not; (5) take no intoxicating or stupefying drugs or liquor. Five other precepts which need not be enumerated here should be observed by those who would attain more quickly than the average layman the release from misery and rebirth.
XIV. Buddhism discourages superstitious credulity. Gautama Buddha taught it to be the duty of a parent to have his child educated in science and literature. He also taught that no one should believe what is spoken by any sage, written in any book, or affirmed by tradition, unless it accords with reason.
This was drafted as a common platform upon which all Buddhists can agree, and signed by H.S. Olcott. The document then closed with the following endorsements.

"Respectfully submitted for the approval of the high priests of the nations which we severally represent, in the Buddhist conference held at Adyar, Madras, on the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th of January 1891 (A B. 2434).

Japan Kozen Gunaratana, Chlezo Tokuzawa

Burma U Hmoay Tha Aung

Ceylon Dhammapala Hevavitarana

The Maghs of Chittegong Krishna Chandra Chowdry, by his appointed Proxy, Maung Tha Dwe.

Burma

Approved on behalf of the Buddhists of Burma, this 3rd day of February 1891 (A.B. 2434):

Tha-tha-na-baing Sayadawgyi; Aung Myi Shewbon Sayadaw; Me-ge-waddy Sayadaw; Hmat-Khaya Sayadaw; Hti-lin Sayadaw; Myadaung Sayadaw; Hla-Htwe Sayadaw; and sixteen others.



Ceylon

Approved on behalf of the Buddhists of Ceylon on this 25th day of February 1891 (A.B. 2434):

Yatawatte Chandjoti, high priest of Asgiri Vihara at Kandy.

(Sd.) YATAWATTA

Hikkaduwe Sri Sumangala, high priest Adam’s Peak and the district of Colombo.

(Sd.) H. SUMANGALA

Suriyagoda Sonuttara, librarian of the oriental library at the Temple of the Tooth Relic at Kandy.

(Sd.) S. SONUTTARA

Dhammalankara, high priest.

(Sd.) W. DHAMMALANKARA

Waskaduwe Subhuti, high priest.

(Sd.) W. SUBHUTI

Japan

Accepted as included within the body of Northern Buddhism.

Shaku Genyu (Shingon Shu)

Fukuda Nichiye (Nichiren Shu)

Sanada Seyke (Zen Shu)

Ito Quan Shyu (Zen Shu)

Takehana Hakuyo (Jodo Shu)

Kono Rioshin (Ji-Shu Shu)

Kiro Ki-Ko (Jodo Seizan Shu)

Harutani Shinsho (Tendai Shu)

Manabe Shun-myo (Shingon Shu)



CHITTAGONG

Accepted for the Buddhists of Chittagong.

Nagawa Parvata Viharadhipati Guna Megu Wini-Lankara, Harbing, Chittagong, Bengal."

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pink_trike
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

Ben, I don't think anyone here is denying the phenomena of rebirth - this is a debate about the context within which it occurs, and the questionable value of a literal interpretation of this phenomena.

metta
Vision is Mind
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Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Craig: Speculative view, in the sense i am using the term, is a view/thought/opinion about what happens after death (maybe as well such questions as "who am i" etc) that comes to be via clinging to the aggregates (if there person is aware or not) . . . Really? what does having a view of rebirth involve and what questions does it naturaly lead to? 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?
Cannot blame rebirth for that. Such ideas of “what will become of me” and the like happen all the time, in reference to what will happen to me in the next hour or minute or second without any need to reference a next life. Blaming rebirth for that is silly, given that the Buddha placed a great deal of emphasis upon rebirth and he did not give his teaching in any other way.
I quote:
This precious human birth

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation: 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" — SN 56.48
Craig responds: How often does a "person" endulge in basic desires like a common animal? How many times does a person live in hate and anger and depression like a hell being? How many times is a person lead by pure greed like a hungry shade never being satisfied?
However, that may be, it still does not at all address the fact that rebirth in a very literal way is presented in this text by the Buddha in the context of the Four Noble Truths. Craig’s response is a two-step-side-step dance of avoiding addressing what is plainly stated.
Me: ‘Actually, have you done much real intensive practice to see what the nature of the "birth and death and rebirth" of the "I am" in a moment to moment arising and falling is really like, what it really feels like? ‘

Craig: If your asking if i actualy practice then yes i do

Me: “What I asked is quite straightforward, but you have not answered the question.”
Craig: I will try to describe my exp/practice as best as i can

Through practice i have had an understanding how clinging to khandas brings "I am" and how that "I am" through clinging to the khandas brings sorrow, anger etc via anicca. I have an understanding how, through ignorance, the taints and a lack of wisdom, that very clinging comes to be via craving and how that craving will lead onto more clinging (and so I am) and so more dukkha (via anicca). What i havent been able to do is watch the whole process from start to finish and my understanding of it is not in full and for the moment its just be in relation to clinging to rupa
Then the answer is no. As I have said above (with some expansion added): Unless one verifies the moment to moment rise and fall -- birth, death, and rebirth -- of experience, it is naught more than speculation, like kamma and nibbana. Craig's moment to moment business is no less speculative than anything else, unless it is directly experienced, which his what description of his practice indicates it is not. What he is giving us is his selective idea of how he thinks the doctrine should be understood.

Craig: All i am saying is the buddhas own teachings dont include it, by his own teachings i mean that which is "special to the buddhas" i.e. 4nt, paticcasamuppada

So Craig says, repeatedly, even though it has been pointed out to him that rebirth is clearly implicit in the teachings of paticcasamuppada, and the above turtle quote shows rebirth included directly with the Four Noble Truths, and we see Craig not acknowledge it; rather, he gives a two-step-side-step dance of avoidance.

The Mahanidana Sutta, DN 15, is a major, doctrinally complicated discourse by the Buddha to his monk (not lay people) on the subject of paticcasamuppada. In it is this passage, which is quite direct, not a figurative moment-to-moment thing that Craig repeatedly states is the fact of paticcasamupadda:

21. 'I have said: "Consciousness conditions mind-and-body." ... [63] If consciousness were not to come into the mother's womb, would mind-and-body develop there?'

'No, Lord.'

'Or if consciousness, having entered the mother's womb, were to be deflected, would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?'

'No, Lord.'

'And if the consciousness of such a tender young being, boy or girl, were thus cut off, would mind-and-body grow, develop and mature?

‘No, Lord.'

. . . . .
- DN ii 62-3; LDB 226.

In the preceding DN discourse we have this:

Then, when the Bodhisatta had entered his dwelling alone, in a secluded spot, he thought: "This world, alas, is in a sorry state: there is birth and decay, there is death and falling into other states and being reborn. And no one knows [31] any way of escape from this suffering, this ageing and death. When will deliverance be found from this suffering, this ageing and death?" DN ii 30-1; LDB 220-1.

While the bodhisatta here is the Buddha-to-be Vipassi, we see that before his awakening, rebirth was very much a part of how he saw things, and there is no reason to assume that rebirth was not the case for the Buddha-to-be Gotama, given the major text from MN 26 clearly indicate it is so.

Craig’s complaint that rebirth leads to unwholesome speculation carries little weight. If we put rebirth into the actual context of the Buddha’s teachings, as we see it in this sort of context, it leads to very wholesome thought and action.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey Tilt
Cannot blame rebirth for that. Such ideas of “what will become of me” and the like happen all the time, in reference to what will happen to me in the next hour or minute or second without any need to reference a next life. Blaming rebirth for that is silly, given that the Buddha placed a great deal of emphasis upon rebirth and he did not give his teaching in any other way.
Im not denying that people will every now and again engage in such questions but if one follows the teachings, one reconizes the danger in such questions and practices to refocus attention to the present moment and focus on what is (and practice to eventualy stop asking such questions altogether)

The Buddha didnt place emphasis on rebirth, he placed emphasis on jati, emphasis on dukkha and its quenching
However, that may be, it still does not at all address the fact that rebirth in a very literal way is presented in this text by the Buddha in the context of the Four Noble Truths. Craig’s response is a two-step-side-step dance of avoiding addressing what is plainly stated.
The 4nt dont include rebirth so i answered in accordance with them
Craig's moment to moment business is no less speculative than anything else, unless it is directly experienced, which his what description of his practice indicates it is not. What he is giving us is his selective idea of how he thinks the doctrine should be understood.
The actual process may involve some slight speculation if one hasnt seen it but its not a stretch since one can see dukkha and anicca right now so that is verified, one can (with some reasonable practice) see how dukkha comes to be via craving and clinging because of ignorance and the taints, once again verified

One can understand Anatta on a basic level since one can understand how clinging to things that have Anicca as their inherent nature will only cause dukkha

One can understand with little speculation, how identification brings ageing, death and dukkha and how Anatta and Voidness removes all that


Kamma is a bit more speculative but one can verify, on a basic level, how intentions bring some results

I agree that Nibbana is speculative (and i dont agree that one should speculate about it) but since the rest can be easily verified, since the first two truths can be verified on a basic level, nibbana becomes less and less a "maybe" and more and more a "will be"


paticcasamuppada isnt really speculation since, with practice, one van verify different aspects of it at different levels, the only speculation may be thinking about the whole process when one has only seen "bits"

The Mahanidana Sutta, DN 15, is a major, doctrinally complicated discourse by the Buddha to his monk (not lay people) on the subject of paticcasamuppada. In it is this passage, which is quite direct, not a figurative moment-to-moment thing that Craig repeatedly states is the fact of paticcasamupadda:
It is an interesting sutta but i think its worth noting that it does stick out as different from other discourses that discuss paticcasamuppada, the use of the word "rebirth" for example instead of Jati

It is different in other ways as well, for example in MN38 it states that paticcasamuppada doesnt occur until after birth, when the human is at a certain age


Bhikkhus, with the coming together of three things a descent to the womb comes about: Here the mother and father come together. It is not the season of the mother. The gandhabba is not present, then there is no descent to the womb. Here, mother and father come together. It is the season of the mother. The gandhabba is not present. Then there is no descent to the womb. Here mother and father come together. It is the season of the mother and the gandhabba is present. Then there is a descent to the womb. That mother protects the womb for nine or ten months with great anxiety and trouble. After nine or ten months that mother gives birth with great anxiety and trouble. She supports the born with her own blood. In the noble ones’ dispensation mother’s milk is called blood. Bhikkhus, that boy grows and his faculties mature and he plays games that boys play. Such as mock games as taking a bowl, turning somersaults, making toy wind mills with palm leaves, making small carts and bows. Bhikkhus, that boy, grows and his faculties develop and is provided with the five strands of sense pleasures, and he lives enticed by pleasing agreeable forms cognisable by eye consciousness, agreeable sounds cognisable by ear consciousness, agreeable smells cognisable by nose consciousness, agreeable tastes cognisable by tongue consciousness and agreeable touches cognisable by body consciousness.

<edit - Begining of the round of paticcasamuppada >

He seeing a form with the eye becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely (*11). He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings he appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arises interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (* 12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasantness. Hearing a sound with the ear, cognising a smell with the nose, cognising a taste with the tongue, cognising a touch with the body, cognising an idea with the mind, becomes greedy for a pleasant idea. Becomes averse to a disagreeable idea. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is. Not knowing how thoughts of demerit cease completely. He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings, appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arise interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (*12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasntness.
As we see in this sutta, paticcasamuppada starts after physical birth, when the human is a certain age (the text doesnt state but i go for early/middle childhood) and also, its occurence in present moment


Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Tilt

There is no rebirth in MN26


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So Craig says, repeatedly, even though it has been pointed out to him that rebirth is clearly implicit in the teachings of paticcasamuppada, and the above turtle quote shows rebirth included directly with the Four Noble Truths, and we see Craig not acknowledge it; rather, he gives a two-step-side-step dance of avoidance.
The only real argument that has been given for rebirth being in the 4Nt and paticcasamuppada is "because it is" or by reading Jati as birth of the khandas instead of birth of "I am"

Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Only if you insist on your speculative way of reading everything... :thinking:
"I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?'
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey Mike
I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?'
Its an interesting passage, if you notice its actually discussing the First Noble Truth

"This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."

Now as the Buddha states, birth, ageing, sickness and death (and the rest) all come to be and can be summed up and included in "in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering"


As in when there is clinging to the aggregates there will be a Jati (of I am) and so when there is "I am" there is identification and so ageing, sickness, death, sorrow etc. Also its important to take into account that clinging happens many times throughout life and many things will be clung to at different times as well, so there will be multiple times of clinging and, as the Buddha states, when there is clinging there is birth and so ageing, sickness and death etc, physical birth only happens one, birth of "I am" can happen trillions of times and probably even more

Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, sure, that's the view that I know you cling to rather tenaciously... It's clear that if you always define birth as moment-to-moment becoming then you won't see any rebirth in the teachings.

Personally, I don't know how to approach some of the teachings. Should I take them literally or metaphorically? I try to keep an open mind...

Metta
Mike
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