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Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme' - Dhamma Wheel

Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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Sekha
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Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:32 pm

Diṭṭheva Dhamme is generally translated as 'here and now' by Thanissaro B and B Bodhi. I used to understand the meaning of it as 'In things that can be seen', or 'in visible phenomena' which would be an equivalent for 'here and now', but this guy has a different interpretation, which is quite well backed-up by various examples:

http://justalittledust.com/blog/?p=694

any expert here could give an opinion?


It seems to me that the matter could be simply summed up as follows:

The difficulty in translating 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme' is that both these words may have different meanings:

Diṭṭheva= Diṭṭha+eva
Diṭṭha may mean visible, determined by sight or, as the pp. of dassati: has seen, has been seen, having been seen, is seen, can be seen, will be seen, should be seen, could be seen
eva means: so, thus, in this way, and may actually not be translatable here

Dhamma most of the time refers to (mental) phenomena, but can also mean the Truth, the Law, the Teaching

So we can draw different meanings from this expression:

1. "in visible phenomena" - ie. here and now, in this life, etc.
2. "having seen the Dhamma"
Last edited by Sekha on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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daverupa
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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:38 pm

:reading:
:popcorn:

I, too, wish to see expert opinion on this matter.

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:30 pm

It is a decent essay, which makes an important point about having to rely on translations.

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:54 pm


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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:04 pm

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:30 am

It seems to me that the matter could be simply summed up as follows:

The difficulty in translating 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme' is that both these words may have different meanings:

Diṭṭheva= Diṭṭha+eva
-- Diṭṭha may mean visible, determined by sight
or, as the pp. of dassati: has seen, has been seen, having been seen, is seen, can be seen, will be seen, should be seen, could be seen
-- eva means: so, thus, in this way, and may actually not be translatable here

-- Dhamma most of the time refers to (mental) phenomena, but can also mean the Truth, the Law, the Teaching

So we can draw different meanings from this expression:

1. "in visible phenomena" - ie. here and now, in this life, etc.
2. "having seen the Dhamma"


But as pointed out by the author of the quoted document, dhamme is at the locative case, so it would rather be "in the dhamma(s)", which is in favor of interpretation 1. Moreover, in the case of interpretation 2, it seems rather logical that the verb dassati would rather call an object than an adverbial noun phrase, and the case here should rather be an accusative: dhammaṃ.

At the same time, the way in which words and their function in sentences are put together in Pali can be quite different from what happens in English, which is why the opinion of an expert would be appreciable here.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

morning mist
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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby morning mist » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:03 am

This article shows various suttas in which the above appear :

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... f2haN78tog
with metta,

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Kare » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:57 am

Mettāya,
Kåre

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tiltbillings
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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:02 am


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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:36 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Kare » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:45 pm

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:58 pm

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:59 pm

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Kare » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:02 pm

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Meaning of 'Diṭṭheva Dhamme'

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:48 pm

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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