Tantra II

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Tantra II

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings venerable Gavesako,
gavesako wrote:If you actually examined the beliefs of a typical Buddhist in a Theravada country and compared it to those supposedly practising some form of Tantra, you would find many similarities among them -- surprisingly many. There are many aspects of the daily rituals performed by Theravada Buddhists which could be called "tantric" in some form.
Is there any chance you might be able to provide some examples?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Individual
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Re: Tantra II

Post by Individual »

Ravana wrote:I think the description of Tantra which you provide itself shows why a discussion of Tantra from a Theravada viewpoint will be problematic:
davcuts wrote:Tantra is practiced so practitioners can see everything is empty regardless of how they may appear.
From what I understand, Theravada doesn't teach that "everything is empty regardless of how they may appear." - it only teaches that "everything is empty of a self".
If you recognize that "self" and "identity," are the same thing, then everything being empty of a self has meaningful ontological implications. If you don't recognize that self and identity are the same thing, would you suggest one can have an "identity" (I am... X") without positing a self?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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pink_trike
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Re: Tantra II

Post by pink_trike »

Hi Davcuts,

Having practiced both Theravada and Tantra, I'll say this: I'm glad I had well over a decade of Theravada experience before I started Tantra practice. Tantra turns up the heat and can really make our active and stored delusion boil much faster - having a solid grounding in Theravada practices helped me let the boiling roll on without being beat up or burned by it (much). Don't get me wrong, the burn is beneficial in the end - but once the boiling starts it needs to be ridden out to fruition. A lot of care needs to be taken to prevent getting lost at sea. It isn't "evil - but it is fraught with dangers (of the mind's creation). Any good teacher expressly warns of this before giving initiation, and stresses the need for a strong student/teacher relationship. Imo, here in the West Tantra practices should only be undertaken after extensive Theravada practice, which provides a ground from which to do Tantric exploration of the groundless. Too many Western folks rush into Tantra and get utterly lost in the labyrinths of the mind, with unfortunate results.

Metta
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
davcuts
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Re: Tantra II

Post by davcuts »

I feel I was introduced to Tantra too soon. At the time I had the empowerment I was taking care of my elderly mother who has suffered with several strokes. She could barely walk at that time. My teacher told me I need to receive the Highest Yoga Tantric Empowerment at all cost. It would be the only true way to help someone. He even said if we must quit our jobs to attend we should do so. So what I did is leave my elderly mother alone for a week to receive HYT. Keep in mind I did it because it was the only true way to help her. Sounds absurd now but at the time it made perfect sense.

I can't blame Tantra for being introduced to it too soon. It all had to do with the cult I belonged to. Most other traditions would not force something onto someone they didn't feel they where ready for. Still when Tantra is practiced correctly it is a very beautiful thing. Despite all the wrathful looking deities and the practices which seem strange to those who are not familiar with Tantra.

Tantra practiced incorrectly can cause unfortunate results. If someone breaks their vows or samaya it can lead to rebirth in hell. Not only for the student but also the teacher (something my teacher failed to tell me before I had the empowerment). I did practice it incorrectly and as a result I have lost hope of taken a fortunate rebirth. That's one of the reasons I'm attracted to Theravada. Maybe it can give me some hope. I also suffer with lung. A lot of my friends who where once part of the cult do as well. I can't mediate without getting a tremor. It's made meditation nearly impossible to do.

Tantra is beautiful, but I don't recommend it to people who don't have a solid grounding in Sutra. Ultimately what ruined Tantra for me is being involved with a cult who exploit its teachings for personal gain. Others most likely want experience what I did.


David
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tantra II

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings

I did practice it incorrectly and as a result I have lost hope of taken a fortunate rebirth.
Dont let if's and but's drag you down, focus on what is, focus on dukkha and how to quench it


Besides not everything is set in stone, that is fatalism


Metta to you :smile:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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pink_trike
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Re: Tantra II

Post by pink_trike »

The beauty of Theravada is that when we stumble on the path, we can always pick ourselves back up and start again in this moment - mindfulness. There are 4 types of mindfulness (satipatthana):

1. on the body
2. on the feelings
3. on the mind
4. on the true nature of things.

It is best to start with #1 - specifically with breath awareness. This may also be the most beneficial way to dissolve lung.

- seek a secluded, quiet space
- sit down, quiet the mind.
- cross your legs
- keep your body erect
- bring your attention to your breath as it naturally moves in and out the nostrils. Note the sensation at the tip of the nostrils as the breath moves in and out.

Then, inhale slowly and deeply, filling first the lower abdomen, then the middle abdomen, then the lungs - gently until the collar bones rise slightly. Hold the breath there for a count of 5, then gently, slowly, release the breath in the opposite order - first the lungs, then the middle abdomen, then the lower abdomen.

Pause, and repeat the process, - 5 times (beginner), 10 times (intermediate) and 20 times (when 10 times is comfortable).. Never strain. If you have feelings of light-headness, return the attention to normal breathing - observing the sensations at the tip of the nostrils.

When finished, sit and observe the quieting effect on the mind.

Once this practice is learned and applied as a regular practice, a solid foundation is prepared to developing the other three types of mindfulness. Once all 4 types of mindfulness practices have been learned and applied, we can move on to deeper awareness practices.

Best of luck in your continued recovery. :anjali:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Dan74
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Re: Tantra II

Post by Dan74 »

Dear Dave,

I think the exercises PT mentioned above should help you with your healing, but if I were in your position I would seek out a solid reputable Vajrayana teacher who already has former NKT students and who would understand your problems when you mention them.

Your problems result from incorrect application of Vajrayana and it only makes sense that they will be set right with correct application of it under an insightful and compassionate teacher.

Good luck!!!

And much metta :heart:

_/|\_
_/|\_
Chantelle
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Re: Tantra II

Post by Chantelle »

I would appreciate some input on an experience I had recently. I spent 3 sessions with a "Tantric / Kundalini" master with 27 years experience. He told me after the 3rd time that I am not to contact him anymore. That I have too much heat and fire. And that was that. We'd had wonderful conversation during and in between sessions. I have to admit after the last session I felt like I'd short circuited and it took me awhile to get myself grounded and realigned again. I would appreciate any ideas or advice in this area.

Thanks!
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Aloka
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Re: Tantra II

Post by Aloka »

.

Dear Davcuts,

You said :
If someone breaks their vows or samaya it can lead to rebirth in hell.
I'm a Vajrayana practitioner myself (although I'm also very keen to know more about Theravada)

I once read a text by a revered dead Tibetan guru which mentioned that it was said that if one has received a single word of teaching of a master and doesn't respect the master, then one will be reborn 500 times as a dog and then as a miserable human being.
For a number of reasons it didn't make any sense to me - so I asked my Tibetan teacher if he believed it too. He said "Maybe it's mental " and that made perfect sense to me because personally I believe that the six realms -as shown in the Tibetan wheel of life http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm - are our mental states and also places we humans create on this planet - and not other places somewhere else.

I think it's not very useful to be beating ourselves up imagining terrible retributions for past mistakes. This doesn't help us to relax and remain in the freshness of the present moment. It's good to meditate.

Don't worry. Be well and happy.

With kind wishes to you.

Dazzle
mudra
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Re: Tantra II

Post by mudra »

Chantelle wrote:I would appreciate some input on an experience I had recently. I spent 3 sessions with a "Tantric / Kundalini" master with 27 years experience. He told me after the 3rd time that I am not to contact him anymore. That I have too much heat and fire. And that was that. We'd had wonderful conversation during and in between sessions. I have to admit after the last session I felt like I'd short circuited and it took me awhile to get myself grounded and realigned again. I would appreciate any ideas or advice in this area.

Thanks!
Are you asking in a Buddhist context or general? Kundalini is not really a Buddhist tantric term or context, more of Hindu yoga thing. In Buddhist tantras there is work with winds but not in the same way as the Hindu Kundalini thing. Perhaps this master was into something a bit different?
gingercatni
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Re: Tantra II

Post by gingercatni »

[/quote]

I came here to get another perspective on tantra. I was having doubts about how authentic it is. Even stating so got me a good scolding on another Buddhist website. According to some I should not even have doubts, much less talk about them openly. I wanted to know why tantra is not taught in Theravada Buddhism. I was also having doubt if I wanted to continue to practice Tibetan Buddhism. In a lot of ways it seems Theravada is more for me. But it seems Theravada Buddhist don't believe in prayer, rituals, or other deities such as Tara, and Amitabha. Is this correct? If it is then I can't see myself converting to Theravada any time soon.

Take care,
David[/quote]

Hi David,

your post is quite old, you have probably sorted out what way you want to go. But to add my view, I will always identify myself as a Theravada Buddhist, however I do believe in Tara. I'm not sure how I came to find her or if Tara found me who knows, but as to whether these Buddha's and deities exist, when we look at the 31 realms of existance the fact devas and brahmans exist here to, why should the likes of Tara not exist there ? So you can always follow buddhism in way that works for you no matter what other people here say. :meditate:
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