Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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imagemarie
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by imagemarie »

Thank-you for this thread.

It just struck me that putting things down in order to practice "bare awareness", is what happens when I'm on the cushion.
And discerning attention/recollection/mindfulness, is something I largely fail to practice when I am NOT on the cushion.

:smile: Thank-you.

:anjali:
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Nāgariko
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Nāgariko »

tiltbillings wrote:
James the Giant wrote:So... how does this argument about sati as remembrance and sati as mindfulness make any difference to my meditation practise? What should I be doing instead?
It is an interesting issue as to how to understand sati. Quite frankly, as with any number of words in the suttas, the meaning is dependent upon context, not just dictionary meaning. I think, however, those who want to argue a strict dictionary meaning for sati should start a new thread, since that would takes us away from a direct discussion of the book. The issue of sati as memory and as "present moment aweareness" is discussed on pages 46-9.
The context sati used in ānāpānasati and satipaṭṭhāna would seem to have the same context of use. The meditator intends to bring awareness to the task of contemplating the breath and the 4 paṭṭhānas?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I struggle to understand how this discerning sati as opposed to bare awareness would happen in meditation. So you sit and proliferate more thoughts about thoughts, more mind states in reaction to mind states?

I thought the Buddha's instruction on discerning the wholesome from the unwholesome were to do with developing and maintaining sila rather than meditation instructions.

Sorry for being dense, I just don't follow, but I would like to understand what Dmytro was arguing for.
Do you have the book? Have you read the Ven author's discussion of sati?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:Then why is it that you are consistently critical and dismissive of the Burmese vipassana tradition's reconstruction, which was done by highly knowledgeable monks, certainly having far more knowledge of the suttas and Pali than we have seen here from you?
Evidently you are talking about the "bare attention", equated with 'sati' on the page 60 of Ven. Analayo's book.

Since my humble opinion is unlikely to contribute to your knowledge, here is an opinion of Alan Wallace, and his correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi:
While mindfulness (sati) is often equated with bare attention, my conversations with—and recent studies of works by—the learned monks Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Analayo, and Rupert Gethin, president of the Pali Text Society, led me to conclude that bare attention corresponds much more closely to the Pali term manasikara, which is commonly translated as "attention" or "mental engagement." This word refers to the initial split seconds of the bare cognizing of an object, before one begins to recognize, identify, and conceptualize, and in Buddhist accounts it is not regarded as a wholesome mental factor. It is ethically neutral. The primary meaning of sati, on the other hand, is recollection, nonforgetfulness. This includes retrospective memory of things in the past, prospectively remembering to do something in the future, and present-centered recollection in the sense of maintaining unwavering attention to a present reality. The opposite of mindfulness is forgetfulness, so mindfulness applied to the breath, for instance, involves continuous, unwavering attention to the respiration. Mindfulness may be used to sustain bare attention (manasikara), but nowhere do traditional Buddhist sources equate mindfulness with such attention.
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha344.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you well know, in the current Vipassana tradition as it has been widely propagated in the West, sati is more or less defined as “bare attention,” or the moment-to-moment, nonjudgmental awareness of whatever arises in the present moment. There is no doubt that the cultivation of such mindfulness is very helpful, but, strangely enough, I have found no evidence in traditional Pāli, Sanskrit, or Tibetan sources to support this definition of sati (smṛti, dran pa).
http://shamatha.org/content/corresponde ... kkhu-bodhi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files ... ndence.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Assaji
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

Hi Dan,
Dan74 wrote:I struggle to understand how this discerning sati as opposed to bare awareness would happen in meditation. So you sit and proliferate more thoughts about thoughts, more mind states in reaction to mind states?

I thought the Buddha's instruction on discerning the wholesome from the unwholesome were to do with developing and maintaining sila rather than meditation instructions.

Sorry for being dense, I just don't follow, but I would like to understand what Dmytro was arguing for.
A very good example is given in the earliest explanation of Anapanasati practice in Patisambhidamagga:
What are the thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing (vodana: also connotation of 'brightening')?

(1) Mind that runs after the past is attacked by distrac­tion: by avoiding that he concentrates it in one place, thus mind does not become distracted.
(2) Mind that looks forward to the future is shakable: by avoiding that he composes it there, thus also mind does not become distracted.
(3) Slack mind is attacked by indolence: by exerting it he abandons indolence, thus also mind does not become distracted.
(4) Over-exerted mind is attacked by agitation: by curbing it he abandons agitation, thus also mind does not become distracted.
(5) Enticed mind is attacked by greed: by being fully aware of that he abandons greed, thus also mind does not become distracted.
(6) Repelled mind is attacked by ill-will: by being fully aware of that he abandons ill-will, thus also mind does not become distracted.
http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic= ... 93#msg9193" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The ancient meditation masters, while observing inbreath and oubreath, were able to discern the specific mental qualities evident in the breath, and were able to abandon the unskillful qualities and develop skillful ones.

As for the Satipatthana practice, the example of it is given in Bhikkhunupassaya sutta:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 656#p88181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then why is it that you are consistently critical and dismissive of the Burmese vipassana tradition's reconstruction, which was done by highly knowledgeable monks, certainly having far more knowledge of the suttas and Pali than we have seen here from you?
Evidently you are talking about the "bare attention", equated with 'sati' on the page 60 of Ven. Analayo's book.
You did not answer my point at all.
Since my humble opinion is unlikely to contribute to your knowledge, here is an opinion of Alan Wallace, and his correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi:
I don't care what B. Alan Wallace has to say, given that he simply failed to understand and address Ven Bodhi's remarks concerning bare attention and mindfulness: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 380#p74190" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I struggle to understand how this discerning sati as opposed to bare awareness would happen in meditation. So you sit and proliferate more thoughts about thoughts, more mind states in reaction to mind states?

I thought the Buddha's instruction on discerning the wholesome from the unwholesome were to do with developing and maintaining sila rather than meditation instructions.

Sorry for being dense, I just don't follow, but I would like to understand what Dmytro was arguing for.
Do you have the book? Have read the Ven author's discussion of sati?
It's in our library at work, so will borrow it on Monday. So far I was just basing my comment on what I saw in this thread.
_/|\_
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote: It's in our library at work, so will borrow it on Monday. So far I was just basing my comment on what I saw in this thread.
Part of the problem is what you saw in this thread is someone, with a significantly different point of view, pushing this thread off-topic
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

The attached PDF is scanned from Ven Analayo's book. It addresses the question of sati and "bare attention/choiceless awareness." (The first page in this scan should actually be the last.) The text to read starts with the second page starting with: III.2 SATI to page 49 and picks up again with page 57 running through to the top three line of page 61 (the first page).
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sati analayo.pdf
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by ground »

Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati in the context of satipatthana is not concerned with recalling past events. It is concerned with remembering to abandon what is uskillful and developing what is skillful - the point which is traditionally misunderstood in the Western Buddhism.
I can't help but this seems to be a complete misrepresentation of the remembrance aspect of sati.
The remembrance aspect is exhaustively described in the satipatthana sutta and there is no need to fabricate additional "remembrances".
How could there be sati with reference to the 4 "foundations" without remembering what one has learned about these (the body, feelings, mind, dhammas) before? One has to remember in order to practice according to the satipatthana sutta.
How could there be contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths if one does not remember what one has learned about the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths? There cannot be "contemplation in terms of" without having learned before and remembering the learned. Without remembering there could be just contemplation without any discerning contexts.


Kind regards
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Bare attention: http://www.alexox.com/sangha/bareattention.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What follows is Ven Bodhi's explanation of bare attention and sati in his dialogue with B. Alan Wallace, found here: http://shamatha.org/content/corresponde ... kkhu-bodhi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As a wholesome mental factor, sati is consistently explained in the same way as in the quotation from Vism XIV 141 (with the forms saranti, sarati, saraṇa, simply cognates of sati). So I don’t have any new definition of sati to offer. But I hope that I can explain how sati, as “bare attention,” can function as a wholesome mental factor. When I use the word ”awareness” or “attention” to render upaṭṭhāna, as representing sati in this role (which is just my hypothesis), this awareness is quite different from ordinary consciousness (viññāṇa), and this attention is different from manasikāra, the mental factor that performs the function of adverting to an object or selecting features of the objective field for closer focus. Sati, as bare attention, is never completely bare. When practiced in the full context of the noble eightfold path (even the path-practice of a worldling) it is, or should be, embraced by other factors of the path, most notably by right view, right motivation, and right effort (factors 1, 2, and 6); it is already supported by the three morality factors (3, 4, 5). As Ven. Nyanaponika first used the expression, sati is “bare” in that it is shorn of our usual emotional reactions, evaluations, judgments, conceptual overlays, etc., and is intended to lay bare the experienced object as clearly as possible.

We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati. We usually translate ‘anupassanā’ as “contemplation,” thus ‘kāyānupassanā’ as “contemplation of the body,” but this might be somewhat misleading. It might be more accurate, and more literal, to translate it as “observation.” The word is made up of a prefix ‘anu’ which suggests repetition, and ’passanā’, which means “seeing, viewing.” So sati is part of a
process that involves a close, repetitive observation of the object.

Several factors enter into anupassanā. According to the “satipaṭṭhāna refrain,” these are energy (ātāpī, “ardent”), clear comprehension (sampajāno), and mindfulness (satimā). Energy contributes the strength to fulfill the practice, but it is mindfulness that brings the object into the field of observation, and in many exercises (though not all) it does so simply through the act of attending to the object over and over, as simply as possible, and of attending to each object that presents itself on the successive occasions of experience. Mindfulness, as bare attention, is thus a key element in the process of adopting an “observational stance” towards one’s own experience.

Mindfulness, as bare attention, however, isn’t just floating loosely in a void. In a meditative situation it will be anchored in a primary object, such as in-breathing and outbreathing, or the rise and fall of the abdomen. But whenever some other phenomenon arises and floats into the field of awareness, the meditator is advised to simply note it, without reacting to it, and then to bring the mind back to the primary object. If any reactions take place, such as enjoying the distracting object or feeling irritated by it, one should note the enjoyment or irritation, and again return to the primary object.

Thus, if you have trouble seeing mindfulness–as bare attention–as a wholesome mental factor because it isn’t remembering one’s wholesome qualities or attending to bodhipakkhiya dhammas, the same problem could be posed in terms of mindfulness of breathing. A skeptic might say: “Yeah, I can see loving-kindness meditation, or compassion meditation, as a wholesome state, but mindfulness of breathing, why, you’re doing nothing but following your breath in and out. What could be especially ‘wholesome’ about that?”

In the practice of bare attention, as used in the ”dry insight” system of vipassanā, mindfulness is used to note whatever is occurring on successive occasions of experience. As this is practiced continuously, over extended periods of time, the mindfulness builds up momentum. By means of this momentum, it is able to bring the “field of experience” into increasingly finer focus, until one can tune into the precise factors constituting any occasion of experience and distinguish them according to their place among the five aggregates. In this way, mindfulness paves the way for the discriminative understanding of the “constituted nature” of experience, allowing paññā to move in and discern the threads that make up the complex experiential occasion. Then because one is attending to the unfolding of experience sequentially across occasions of experience, the characteristic comes into sharp focus. One can see how each event occurs and vanishes, followed by the next event, which occurs and vanishes, followed by the next event, which occurs and vanishes. As concentration grows stronger, this ability to focus upon the arising and passing of events becomes more refined, so that it seems one is perceiving the arising and passing of cognitive events in terms of nanoseconds. Again, this uncovers, even more starkly, the characteristic of impermanence, and from there one can move on to the characteristics of dukkha and anatta.

Of course, one who gains the jhānas, and then uses the concentration of the jhāna to focus on the procession of experience, has even more powerful resources for gaining direct perception of the radical truth of impermanence. But even this must begin with some degree of “bare attention” to immediate experience.

. . .

“Sati, as bare attention, is never completely bare. When practiced in the full context of the noble eightfold path (even the path-practice of a worldling) it is, or should be, embraced by other factors of the path, most notably by right view, right motivation, and right effort (factors 1, 2, and 6); it is already supported by the three morality factors (3, 4, 5).”

You were worried that I had missed out on right thought, and further on in your letter you expressed concern about the need for proper motivation; but the factor often translated as right thought, sammā saṅkappa, is what I have here translated “right motivation” (it is elsewhere translated “right intention”). I’m not sure how the Tibetan translations render the second path factor, but the Pāli term suggests the purposive, motivational element in thought, rather than the cognitive, which is covered by right view. In my understanding, without right view or right intention, one could be practicing “bare mindfulness,” and yet that “bare mindfulness” is unlikely to develop into sammā sati, right mindfulness. Similarly, one could be practicing mindfulness of breathing, or contemplation of bodily sensations, or loving-kindness meditation, or perhaps even reflective meditation on the Four Noble Truths and dependent origination as applicable to this present life alone (no trespassing into unverifiable past and future lives), and these practices, while being “wholesome,” would still be deficient as Dharma practices.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Sylvester »

While I would not disagree with the citations furnished by Dmytro and Piotr, I personally feel that the instructions given in those suttas fit more nicely with Sammavayama, in the sense that such sati is certainly necessary for Sammavayama.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

TMingyur wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati in the context of satipatthana is not concerned with recalling past events. It is concerned with remembering to abandon what is uskillful and developing what is skillful - the point which is traditionally misunderstood in the Western Buddhism.
I can't help but this seems to be a complete misrepresentation of the remembrance aspect of sati.
The remembrance aspect is exhaustively described in the satipatthana sutta and there is no need to fabricate additional "remembrances".
How could there be sati with reference to the 4 "foundations" without remembering what one has learned about these (the body, feelings, mind, dhammas) before? One has to remember in order to practice according to the satipatthana sutta.
How could there be contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths if one does not remember what one has learned about the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths? There cannot be "contemplation in terms of" without having learned before and remembering the learned. Without remembering there could be just contemplation without any discerning contexts.

Kind regards
Hi TMingyur,

In my understanding, there are things remembered by sanna, and others by sati.
For exemple, as I read your name, sanna was remembering the letters constituing it, while sati remembers "seing is happening".

So all the concepts mentioned in the suttas are remembered by sanna as one reads them, while sati remembers what is happening now, whether it is walking, standing, feeling, thinking etc...

Memory of the concepts will help much, though, before real sati actually arises.

Regards,
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

Dear all,

Following the discussion on "bare attention" and "sati", here are my thoughts:

I wonder if the modern teachers who have been teaching "bare attention" intended it to be a equivalent of sati or simply a preliminary instructions for students who, most often, have deep rooted habits to proliferate, to judge, to like and dislike. So explaining "bare attention" seems to be a kind of antidote to such common attitudes.

However, it is indeed true that some (or many) students seem to take that instruction to the extreme of removing necessary discriminative tendencies/faculties known as Dhamma-vicaya.

That's why teachers like U Tejaniya Sayadaw of Burma has given life to a book titled "Awareness alone is not enough" where he stretched on the importance of developing the investigation factor (Dhamma-vicaya) in the course of practice.

Last, but not least, I don't think we can really practice "sati" in its true meaning ( as in the quotes provided by Dmtro). We "practice" all kinds of things that are more or less close to it, until it actually arises, accompanied by right view .

Regards,
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote: Last, but not least, I don't think we can really practice "sati" in its true meaning ( as in the quotes provided by Dmtro). We "practice" all kinds of things that are more or less close to it, until it actually arises, accompanied by right view .
The problem is that Dmytro's quotes, as the quotes from Vens Nyanaponika, Analayo and Bodhi show, really do not cover the full range of what is being discussed here. I would suggest you read (or reread) carefully the quotes in the PDF in the msg: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p160144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as well as Ven Bodhi's comments: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p160162" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, please keep in mind, what we are discussing in this thread is Ven Analayo's book, Satipatthana: The direct path to realization.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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