the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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pink_trike
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, sure, that's the view that I know you cling to rather tenaciously... It's clear that if you always define birth as moment-to-moment becoming then you won't see any rebirth in the teachings.

Personally, I don't know how to approach some of the teachings. Should I take them literally or metaphorically? I try to keep an open mind...

Metta
Mike
If we don't know, imo, we shouldn't pretend to ourselves that we do know - either way. We can get lost in the labyrinths of pretend that masquerade as certainty. Better to say "I don't know" about some things. I have serious doubts about "literal" and default to metaphorical...but there is no way I can possible know, or anyone can know. That's why I prefer to stick to practice, and try to minimize speculation by understanding how alluring it is and how the ego lusts for it.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, sure, that's the view that I know you cling to rather tenaciously... It's clear that if you always define birth as moment-to-moment becoming then you won't see any rebirth in the teachings.

Personally, I don't know how to approach some of the teachings. Should I take them literally or metaphorically? I try to keep an open mind...

Metta
Mike
I dont cling to it, i just keep stating it because thats how the suttas teach it

1st Noble Truth is about how dukkha is there because of clinging to aggregates and so having "I am"

This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

The last bit is important for understanding, because of clinging to khandas there is "I am". When there is "I am" there is identiciation with the Khandas, when there is identification there is ageing, sickness and death (and also the whole not wanting to get sick, grief, anger etc that go hand in hand with that)

For example, if one clings to the body they identify with it. When the body ages there is the ignorant view "I age". When it dies there is the ignoranct view "I die" and so all the grief and sadness that go along with this

As the Buddhas states here
"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2nd Noble Truth is how that identification and so "I am" comes to be

This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to new becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving to be, craving not-to-be.

Craving is a condition for the arising of clinging (origin of dukkha)
Clinging is a condition for the arising of becoming
Becoming is a condition for the arising of jati, or birth of "I am", so new becoming (first noble truth because when there is identification through clinging to the khandas, there is dukkha)
Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Self identification is clinging to the aggregates ( in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering, dukkha),

This comes to be via craving which leads to a new identification or new becoming and so birth of "I am", of identification, as the above quote states, not about birth or rebirth after physical death


3rd Noble Truth is the quenching of dukkha

This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it.

By removing craving (through the practice) there is no more clinging and so no more birth of "I" or identification with that which ages and dies (so no more ageing and death i.e. the deathless)
'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


4th Noble Truth is the way to practice inorder to "achieve" that removal

Noble eight fold path will lead one to the deathless

Right View - Understanding of the Four Noble Truths

All about the present moment, about dukkha and its quenching, which one comes to understand by approptiate attention
"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing
All without rebirth theory/view, unless one puts it in by taking jati as everyday, conventional birth of the khandas

Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote: I dont cling to it, i just keep stating it because thats how the suttas teach it

1st Noble Truth is about how dukkha is there because of clinging to aggregates and so having "I am"
Yes, we know that. That seems to be the core of what we are all aiming for. Experientially, not intellectually.

Where we disagree is the speculations about what the teachings of rebirth are about that you deduce from that.

As Pink says, it might be better to "not know" rather than have particular views.

Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings

Even if you dont take anything i have said as proper then look at what Bhikkhuni Dhammadinna has to say (who was praised by the Buddha for what she taught here)
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then Visakha the lay follower went to Dhammadinna the nun and, on arrival, having bowed down to her, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to her, "'Self-identification, self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

<edit - 1st Noble Truth, about "I am" not physical birth>

Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

<edit - 2nd Noble Truth, craving leads to new identification so new birth of "I am">

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

<edit - 3rd Noble Truth>

"'The way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification, the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

<edit - 4th Noble Truth>

"Precisely this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration: This, friend Visakha, is the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey Mike
As Pink says, it might be better to "not know" rather than have particular views.
I agree, i dont deny rebirth, all im saying is that is a speculative, unknown view and that actually having such a view has nothing to do with practicing the Buddhas noble teachings


Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Craig: i dont deny rebirth, all im saying is that is a speculative, unknown view and that actually having such a view has nothing to do with practicing the Buddhas noble teachings.
Except, kamma and paticcasamuppada are “speculative” until one, through one's own efforts gains insight into them. Knowledge of rebirth is open to personal verification just as is anicca, dukkha, anatta, and it can be a way of gaining insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticcasamuppada, as the Buddha’s awakening (as well as others) suttas show.

To claim that rebirth has nothing to do with “practicing the Buddha’s noble teachings,” is to claim a serious lack of textual knowledge, and even more so, as you repeatedly do here, it is to completely ignore any evidence that contradicts your position.

I gave the very famous turtle discourse which directly ties rebirth to the Four Noble Truths:
I quote:
This precious human birth

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation: 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" — SN 56.48
Craig responds: How often does a "person" endulge in basic desires like a common animal? How many times does a person live in hate and anger and depression like a hell being? How many times is a person lead by pure greed like a hungry shade never being satisfied?
No one is denying the “moment-to-moment” interpretation of paticcasamuppada, but your “answer” here is not really an answer; it does not address the text at all. You have given us no reason to look at this text as figurative.

The problem with your style of argument is that nothing can count against your position. You either do a two-step-side-step dance, avoiding actually addressing the text in question, as you did with the turtle discourse, or you simply ignore what is said, as you did with AN 4.1 I quoted above, which neatly ties rebirth into the practice leading to awakening the Buddha taught.
Me: “The Mahanidana Sutta, DN 15, is a major, doctrinally complicated discourse by the Buddha to his monk (not lay people) on the subject of paticcasamuppada. In it is this passage, which is quite direct, not a figurative moment-to-moment thing that Craig repeatedly states is the fact of paticcasamupadda:”
Craig: It is an interesting sutta but i think its worth noting that it does stick out as different from other discourses that discuss paticcasamuppada, the use of the word "rebirth" for example instead of Jati

It is different in other ways as well, for example in MN38 it states that paticcasamuppada doesnt occur until after birth, when the human is at a certain age
What is worth noting is your inability to actually deal with an important, large text that places rebirth right in the middle of the paticcasamuppada chain. As for jati, you have ignored what others have said to you about this, offering no real reason that jati must always be taken in a figurative manner, as your position suggests. There is no reason to do so.

You quote a section from MN 38 and state: As we see in this sutta, paticcasamuppada starts after physical birth, when the human is a certain age (the text doesnt state but i go for early/middle childhood) and also, its occurence in present moment.

The problem with your taking a text like this without consideration of the broader context of other texts is that you simply and obviously distort the Buddha’s teachings, as you have been doing.

“Early/middle childhood?” These texts do not exist as stand alone entities. Since you are the text master here, tell us what the Buddha had to say about babies.

Also, let us not forget that even if this text is descriptive of what is literally true, as you suggest, it still does not negate paticcasamuppada as an ongoing principle of the functioning of the child as it grows, even before it kicks in the way you seem to think it does.
“These are the Four Noble Truths" - that is the Dhamma taught by me, which is unrefuted, untarnished, unblamed and uncensured by intelligent ascetics and brahmins. . . . Now, on account of what was it said that the Four Noble Truths are the Dhamma taught by me? Based on the six elements there is descent into the womb." Such descent taking place, there is name-and-form." With name-and-form as condition there are the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition there is contact; with contact as condition there is feeling. Now it is for one who feels that I make known, "This is suffering", "this is the origin of suffering", "This is the cessation of suffering", "This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering". - AN 3 61.
Again, decent into the womb, rebirth, or more accurately, reconception. “Decent into the womb” is certainly less amenable to a figurative reading than jati supposedly is, but even if one squirms around enough to give this a figurative reading, there is also no reason that it cannot be taken as literal. The literal reading is no less true than the “moment-to-moment,” and it often requires far less pretzelization of logic for it to make sense. This is not an either-or situation. So, with AN 3 61 we have rebirth tied directly to the Four Noble truths and paticcasamuppada.

Craig: There is no rebirth in MN26

The relevant passage:
"So I [the Buddha], monks being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."

...

"Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, this instructed by me
[the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the
uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana [nirvana] -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."
Majjhima Nikaya I 167 and 173.
Let’s see here. If I have not attainted nibbana, after I die, I’ll be reborn, which means I am, as an unawakened person, still liable to birth. Looks like the text is very directly referring to rebirth.

Craig: His own teachings of the 4NT (and so D.O.), which i have already described, have no rebirth in them

As we see, this claim has been shown to be simply wrong.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by christopher::: »

I don't usually join theses endless rebirth debates.

The reason is that it seems to be a matter of personal belief. You can find support in ancient teachings but at the end of the day it comes down to what "makes sense" for you. It's a personal matter. Like a born-again Christian saying we will be left behind during the rapture, that we need to accept Jesus as our personal savior, metaphysics involves faith, and belief in what is unseen and unproven (in the scientific sense).

I see no utility in arguing this with anyone. People believe different things, it just feels right, or it doesn't.

That said, I do believe in rebirth. Not because of what ancient texts (passed on orally, translated into different languages) present as the "words of the Buddha" 2,500 years ago. I believe it cause it just makes sense to me on a deep level, feels right, feels true.

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:I don't usually join theses endless rebirth debates.

The reason is that it seems to be a matter of personal belief.
Of course, but the issue here for me is not if rebirth is in fact true, but what is its position within the Buddha's teachings. Do we take a anachronistic revisionist stance as Craig wants us to assume is THE way to understand things, or do we take the texts at more or less face value. What we do after that is a matter of personal choice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:I don't usually join theses endless rebirth debates.
Do we take a anachronistic revisionist stance as Craig wants us to assume is THE way to understand things, or do we take the texts at more or less face value.

What we do after that is a matter of personal choice.
Is it really limited to those two choices? Can we really not just say "I don't know" and leave it at that, no matter what our persistent preference is?

Aren't they both simply personal choices?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:I don't usually join theses endless rebirth debates.
Do we take a anachronistic revisionist stance as Craig wants us to assume is THE way to understand things, or do we take the texts at more or less face value.

What we do after that is a matter of personal choice.
Is it really limited to those two choices? Can we really not just say "I don't know" and leave it at that, no matter what our persistent preference is?

Aren't they both simply personal choices?

I do not know what the tradition says, or I don't know if rebirth is true?

The Theravadin traditions says there is rebirth, and certainly this is borne out by the texts upon which it is based.

Is rebirth the way the universe actually operates? How one relates to that is certainly a personal issue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
I do not know what the tradition says, or I don't know if rebirth is true?

The Theravadin traditions says there is rebirth, and certainly this is borne out by the texts upon which it is based.

Is rebirth the way the universe actually operates? How one relates to that is certainly a personal issue.
The concept of literal rebirth (taking the teachings at face value) is difficult for many Westerners to accept, and too easy for many Westerners to accept. One might be aversion. One might be grasping - both very personal. Imo, it doesn't need to be a polarized mandatory choice. We can say "I don't know" and practice. Practice reveals how the phenomenal universe operates - by practicing we can observe it and not have to hold any speculative beliefs about it that may feed our delusional tendencies - in either direction.
Last edited by pink_trike on Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:

Is rebirth the way the universe actually operates?
For me that is the core question, always. Thus, any position is speculative, theoretical...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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pink_trike
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by pink_trike »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:

Is rebirth the way the universe actually operates?
For me that is the core question, always. Thus, any position is speculative, theoretical...
Yup - even "I don't know" is a speculative mind-position, but it is an open palm speculation, where as the other two choices are a closed fist.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:

Is rebirth the way the universe actually operates?
For me that is the core question, always. Thus, any position is speculative, theoretical...
Except it possible for one to know for oneself.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
Except it possible for one to know for oneself.
Well... I dunno. I believe, but do not believe that I know....
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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