Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:59 am

Bare attention: http://www.alexox.com/sangha/bareattention.pdf

What follows is Ven Bodhi's explanation of bare attention and sati in his dialogue with B. Alan Wallace, found here: http://shamatha.org/content/corresponde ... kkhu-bodhi

As a wholesome mental factor, sati is consistently explained in the same way as in the quotation from Vism XIV 141 (with the forms saranti, sarati, saraṇa, simply cognates of sati). So I don’t have any new definition of sati to offer. But I hope that I can explain how sati, as “bare attention,” can function as a wholesome mental factor. When I use the word ”awareness” or “attention” to render upaṭṭhāna, as representing sati in this role (which is just my hypothesis), this awareness is quite different from ordinary consciousness (viññāṇa), and this attention is different from manasikāra, the mental factor that performs the function of adverting to an object or selecting features of the objective field for closer focus. Sati, as bare attention, is never completely bare. When practiced in the full context of the noble eightfold path (even the path-practice of a worldling) it is, or should be, embraced by other factors of the path, most notably by right view, right motivation, and right effort (factors 1, 2, and 6); it is already supported by the three morality factors (3, 4, 5). As Ven. Nyanaponika first used the expression, sati is “bare” in that it is shorn of our usual emotional reactions, evaluations, judgments, conceptual overlays, etc., and is intended to lay bare the experienced object as clearly as possible.

We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati. We usually translate ‘anupassanā’ as “contemplation,” thus ‘kāyānupassanā’ as “contemplation of the body,” but this might be somewhat misleading. It might be more accurate, and more literal, to translate it as “observation.” The word is made up of a prefix ‘anu’ which suggests repetition, and ’passanā’, which means “seeing, viewing.” So sati is part of a
process that involves a close, repetitive observation of the object.

Several factors enter into anupassanā. According to the “satipaṭṭhāna refrain,” these are energy (ātāpī, “ardent”), clear comprehension (sampajāno), and mindfulness (satimā). Energy contributes the strength to fulfill the practice, but it is mindfulness that brings the object into the field of observation, and in many exercises (though not all) it does so simply through the act of attending to the object over and over, as simply as possible, and of attending to each object that presents itself on the successive occasions of experience. Mindfulness, as bare attention, is thus a key element in the process of adopting an “observational stance” towards one’s own experience.

Mindfulness, as bare attention, however, isn’t just floating loosely in a void. In a meditative situation it will be anchored in a primary object, such as in-breathing and outbreathing, or the rise and fall of the abdomen. But whenever some other phenomenon arises and floats into the field of awareness, the meditator is advised to simply note it, without reacting to it, and then to bring the mind back to the primary object. If any reactions take place, such as enjoying the distracting object or feeling irritated by it, one should note the enjoyment or irritation, and again return to the primary object.

Thus, if you have trouble seeing mindfulness–as bare attention–as a wholesome mental factor because it isn’t remembering one’s wholesome qualities or attending to bodhipakkhiya dhammas, the same problem could be posed in terms of mindfulness of breathing. A skeptic might say: “Yeah, I can see loving-kindness meditation, or compassion meditation, as a wholesome state, but mindfulness of breathing, why, you’re doing nothing but following your breath in and out. What could be especially ‘wholesome’ about that?”

In the practice of bare attention, as used in the ”dry insight” system of vipassanā, mindfulness is used to note whatever is occurring on successive occasions of experience. As this is practiced continuously, over extended periods of time, the mindfulness builds up momentum. By means of this momentum, it is able to bring the “field of experience” into increasingly finer focus, until one can tune into the precise factors constituting any occasion of experience and distinguish them according to their place among the five aggregates. In this way, mindfulness paves the way for the discriminative understanding of the “constituted nature” of experience, allowing paññā to move in and discern the threads that make up the complex experiential occasion. Then because one is attending to the unfolding of experience sequentially across occasions of experience, the characteristic comes into sharp focus. One can see how each event occurs and vanishes, followed by the next event, which occurs and vanishes, followed by the next event, which occurs and vanishes. As concentration grows stronger, this ability to focus upon the arising and passing of events becomes more refined, so that it seems one is perceiving the arising and passing of cognitive events in terms of nanoseconds. Again, this uncovers, even more starkly, the characteristic of impermanence, and from there one can move on to the characteristics of dukkha and anatta.

Of course, one who gains the jhānas, and then uses the concentration of the jhāna to focus on the procession of experience, has even more powerful resources for gaining direct perception of the radical truth of impermanence. But even this must begin with some degree of “bare attention” to immediate experience.

. . .

“Sati, as bare attention, is never completely bare. When practiced in the full context of the noble eightfold path (even the path-practice of a worldling) it is, or should be, embraced by other factors of the path, most notably by right view, right motivation, and right effort (factors 1, 2, and 6); it is already supported by the three morality factors (3, 4, 5).”

You were worried that I had missed out on right thought, and further on in your letter you expressed concern about the need for proper motivation; but the factor often translated as right thought, sammā saṅkappa, is what I have here translated “right motivation” (it is elsewhere translated “right intention”). I’m not sure how the Tibetan translations render the second path factor, but the Pāli term suggests the purposive, motivational element in thought, rather than the cognitive, which is covered by right view. In my understanding, without right view or right intention, one could be practicing “bare mindfulness,” and yet that “bare mindfulness” is unlikely to develop into sammā sati, right mindfulness. Similarly, one could be practicing mindfulness of breathing, or contemplation of bodily sensations, or loving-kindness meditation, or perhaps even reflective meditation on the Four Noble Truths and dependent origination as applicable to this present life alone (no trespassing into unverifiable past and future lives), and these practices, while being “wholesome,” would still be deficient as Dharma practices.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby Sylvester » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:43 am

While I would not disagree with the citations furnished by Dmytro and Piotr, I personally feel that the instructions given in those suttas fit more nicely with Sammavayama, in the sense that such sati is certainly necessary for Sammavayama.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:53 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati in the context of satipatthana is not concerned with recalling past events. It is concerned with remembering to abandon what is uskillful and developing what is skillful - the point which is traditionally misunderstood in the Western Buddhism.


I can't help but this seems to be a complete misrepresentation of the remembrance aspect of sati.
The remembrance aspect is exhaustively described in the satipatthana sutta and there is no need to fabricate additional "remembrances".
How could there be sati with reference to the 4 "foundations" without remembering what one has learned about these (the body, feelings, mind, dhammas) before? One has to remember in order to practice according to the satipatthana sutta.
How could there be contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths if one does not remember what one has learned about the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths? There cannot be "contemplation in terms of" without having learned before and remembering the learned. Without remembering there could be just contemplation without any discerning contexts.

Kind regards


Hi TMingyur,

In my understanding, there are things remembered by sanna, and others by sati.
For exemple, as I read your name, sanna was remembering the letters constituing it, while sati remembers "seing is happening".

So all the concepts mentioned in the suttas are remembered by sanna as one reads them, while sati remembers what is happening now, whether it is walking, standing, feeling, thinking etc...

Memory of the concepts will help much, though, before real sati actually arises.

Regards,
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:21 pm

Dear all,

Following the discussion on "bare attention" and "sati", here are my thoughts:

I wonder if the modern teachers who have been teaching "bare attention" intended it to be a equivalent of sati or simply a preliminary instructions for students who, most often, have deep rooted habits to proliferate, to judge, to like and dislike. So explaining "bare attention" seems to be a kind of antidote to such common attitudes.

However, it is indeed true that some (or many) students seem to take that instruction to the extreme of removing necessary discriminative tendencies/faculties known as Dhamma-vicaya.

That's why teachers like U Tejaniya Sayadaw of Burma has given life to a book titled "Awareness alone is not enough" where he stretched on the importance of developing the investigation factor (Dhamma-vicaya) in the course of practice.

Last, but not least, I don't think we can really practice "sati" in its true meaning ( as in the quotes provided by Dmtro). We "practice" all kinds of things that are more or less close to it, until it actually arises, accompanied by right view .

Regards,
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:11 pm

dhamma follower wrote:Last, but not least, I don't think we can really practice "sati" in its true meaning ( as in the quotes provided by Dmtro). We "practice" all kinds of things that are more or less close to it, until it actually arises, accompanied by right view .
The problem is that Dmytro's quotes, as the quotes from Vens Nyanaponika, Analayo and Bodhi show, really do not cover the full range of what is being discussed here. I would suggest you read (or reread) carefully the quotes in the PDF in the msg: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9941&start=20#p160144 as well as Ven Bodhi's comments: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9941&start=40#p160162

Also, please keep in mind, what we are discussing in this thread is Ven Analayo's book, Satipatthana: The direct path to realization.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby Dmytro » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:52 pm

Hi Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:While I would not disagree with the citations furnished by Dmytro and Piotr, I personally feel that the instructions given in those suttas fit more nicely with Sammavayama, in the sense that such sati is certainly necessary for Sammavayama.


Sati certainly works hand-in-hand with Sammavayama, - they are close together in the Eightfold Path.

The myth of Sati as some kind of present moment awareness (in the context of Satipatthana) may have originated due to the fact that there's no direct mention of abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful in the Satipatthana sutta itself.

However the Chinese counterpart of Satipatthana sutta describes the application of right effort, and much more.

In the Pali Canon, Satipatthana Samyutta also provides for a wider view.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:12 pm

Dmytro wrote: The myth of Sati as some kind of present moment awareness (in the context of Satipatthana) may have originated due to the fact that there's no direct mention of abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful in the Satipatthana sutta itself. . . .
The problem with your position is that it really does not either accurately represent or counter what Ven Analayo has carefully (and textually) shown in the above PDF and in his book as a whole.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby Dmytro » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:13 am

tiltbillings wrote:The problem with your position is that it really does not either accurately represent or counter what Ven Analayo has carefully (and textually) shown in the above PDF and in his book as a whole.


I have not found in the Ven Analayo's work any scriptural support for the interpretation of 'sati' as 'choiceless awareness' and 'bare attention'. If you have found such support, I would be glad to read about it. Buddha's "Four Great References" from the Mahaparinibbana sutta directly require comparing the statements on Buddha's teaching with Sutta ana Vinaya. Statements without any support can't be called "reconstructions", they are outright misrepresentations of Buddha's teaching.

I appreciate the textual support when it is present, and to support the point I was making, I enclose the translation of Chinese equivalent of Satipa.t.thaana sutta by N J Smith.
It seems that it is no longer available in the Net, and may be interesting for many.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:32 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem with your position is that it really does not either accurately represent or counter what Ven Analayo has carefully (and textually) shown in the above PDF and in his book as a whole.


I have not found in the Ven Analayo's work any scriptural support for the interpretation of 'sati' as 'choiceless awareness' and 'bare attention'.
Of course you haven't and it seems you never will, but that does not mean that it is not there, as the above PDF shows quite clearly that it is. At this point, I think it is obvious what your position is, which is fine, but here are your words:
The honest approach would be to acknowledge that Buddha's teaching is partly lost, and we can only reconstruct it in the best way possible. This would provide space for many varieties of reconstruction, and for many possible practises. Then we would also be able to seek constructively for better and better reconstructions of the Buddha's teaching.
The problem is that you seem only want to allow for a "reconstruction" that fits the narrowest readings that you think is correct, despite what you are saying in this quote.

Now, this is a thread for discussing Ven Analayo's book. You have registered your position; it has been acknowledged as being a position you hold that differs from Ven Analayo's position as well as Ven Bodhi's position and likely the positions of such as Vens Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw and any number of other Burmese vipassana teachers. If you want to continue to argue against Ven Analayo's position, you will need to start a new thread. Here, we are discussing Ven Analayo's position.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby manas » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:18 am

Dmytro wrote:The myth of Sati as some kind of present moment awareness (in the context of Satipatthana) may have originated due to the fact that there's no direct mention of abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful in the Satipatthana sutta itself.

Hi Dmytro,

if we observe the sequence of what sati is meant to be observing in this section of the sutta, it leads us in the direction of overcoming the hindrances:

Mental Qualities

"And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves?

[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)


I know what you are getting at in that there is no direct instruction as in "abandon sensual desire!" etc, but maybe it's assumed that we already know that this needs to be done. It seems to be implied here, in any case (afaics), by ending with "...that has been abandoned".

:anjali:
Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:22 am

manasikara wrote:I know what you are getting at in that there is no direct instruction as in "abandon sensual desire!" etc, but maybe it's assumed that we already know that this needs to be done. It seems to be implied here, in any case (afaics), by ending with "...that has been abandoned".

:anjali:
Have you read the above PDF?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby ground » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:04 am

dhamma follower wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati in the context of satipatthana is not concerned with recalling past events. It is concerned with remembering to abandon what is uskillful and developing what is skillful - the point which is traditionally misunderstood in the Western Buddhism.


I can't help but this seems to be a complete misrepresentation of the remembrance aspect of sati.
The remembrance aspect is exhaustively described in the satipatthana sutta and there is no need to fabricate additional "remembrances".
How could there be sati with reference to the 4 "foundations" without remembering what one has learned about these (the body, feelings, mind, dhammas) before? One has to remember in order to practice according to the satipatthana sutta.
How could there be contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths if one does not remember what one has learned about the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths? There cannot be "contemplation in terms of" without having learned before and remembering the learned. Without remembering there could be just contemplation without any discerning contexts.

Kind regards


Hi TMingyur,

In my understanding, there are things remembered by sanna, and others by sati.
For exemple, as I read your name, sanna was remembering the letters constituing it, while sati remembers "seing is happening".

So all the concepts mentioned in the suttas are remembered by sanna as one reads them, while sati remembers what is happening now, whether it is walking, standing, feeling, thinking etc...

Memory of the concepts will help much, though, before real sati actually arises.

Regards,


Well, let's see what B. Analayo has to say about this:

The noun Sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of memory occurs on several occasions in the discourses and also in the standard definition given in the Abhidamma and the commentaries. This remembrance aspect of sati is personified by the Buddha's disciple most eminent in sati, Ananda, who is credited with the almost incredible feat of recalling all the discourses spoken by the Buddha. Chapter III.2, page 46

This shall suffice for the moment.

Your "seing is happening" may be another aspect of sati but to me it seems to be more related to the instructions given to Bahiya which in comparison to the instructions given by the satipatthana may be more "advanced" however it is the satipatthana sutta commentary by B. Analayo that is the topic of this thread.

Let's take for example contemplation of dhammas in two contexts.
What is the context of "seing is happening"? It may be the context of "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five clinging aggregates" or the context of "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres". It is exactly the contexts suggested in the satipatthana sutta that are specific for satipatthana. And these contexts suggest the sati aspect as remembrance of the Buddha's teachings in terms of "the five clinging aggregates" and in terms of "the six internal and external sense spheres".

So to elaborate further (using computer terminology alluding to "not clinging to anything in the world"):
1. "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five clinging aggregates"
After mind has been booted with the operating system Khandha-samyutta the "gap" between past and future is scanned and patterns are recognized according to the meanings of the Khandha-samyutta.
2. "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres"
After mind has been booted with the operating system Salayatana-samyutta the "gap" between past and future is scanned and patterns are recognized according to the meanings of Salayatana-samyutta.


Kind regards
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby dhamma follower » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:18 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Well, let's see what B. Analayo has to say about this:

The noun Sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of memory occurs on several occasions in the discourses and also in the standard definition given in the Abhidamma and the commentaries. This remembrance aspect of sati is personified by the Buddha's disciple most eminent in sati, Ananda, who is credited with the almost incredible feat of recalling all the discourses spoken by the Buddha. Chapter III.2, page 46

This shall suffice for the moment.



While the aspect of remembrance of sati is a general consensus and that I wholeheartedly agree with, equating sati with memory purely in the common sense (that I call memory of sanna) is Ven Analayo's own opinion, that I disagree with.

The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, He listed all the objects of sati, no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents of what someone has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.

Here is an harsardous example, because they abound:

"When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released."

And here is where sanna is the object of sati, making a clear line between the two:

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas..."

It is precisely this distinction between sanna and sati that the former keeps us in samsara while the later gets us out of there. Sanna remembers things that are useful for life but when we take them to be inherently true reality, we are damned to suffer. Sati remembers what should be remembered, meaning the working of the five khandas, which leads to the understanding of their true nature.

At the beginning, their difference is so subtle that it is not easy to distinguish the two, only when sanna becomes the object of sati that it becomes clear.

We can remark that the order of the objects of sati mentioned in the sutta goes from grosser to subtler, I think it also reflects the gradual increase in strength of sati: at the beginning, a lot of concepts are involved : "I", "walking", "sitting"... and towards the end, only basic elements are mentioned, finally culminating in the Four Noble Truth and the Eight Noble fold Paths, Nibbana.

Regards,
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby daverupa » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:26 pm

dhamma follower wrote:The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, he listed all the objects of sati, no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents what of some has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.


SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:11 pm

dhamma follower wrote: While the aspect of remembrance of sati is a general consensus and that I wholeheartedly agree with, equating sati with memory purely in the common sense (that I call memory of sanna) is Ven Analayo's own opinion, that I disagree with.
?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:12 pm

daverupa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, he listed all the objects of sati, no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents what of some has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.


SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
And this text is telling us what?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:15 pm

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And this text is telling us what?

That you're both right, and are only wrong if you consider the other to be wrong, as that would be to exclude some of the function or consequence of sati.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:21 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And this text is telling us what?

That you're both right, and are only wrong if you consider the other to be wrong, as that would be to exclude some of the function or consequence of sati.

Metta,
Retro. :)
How does the text in question relate to what Ven Analayo's has said. It has been used by other to try to beat him up, but I have yet to see how. What daverupa means here is as clear as mud.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby daverupa » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:03 pm

tiltbillings wrote:What daverupa means here is as clear as mud.


When dhamma follower said

dhamma follower wrote:The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, he listed all the objects of sati,


this was correct, and when dhamma follower said

dhamma follower wrote:no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents what of some has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.


this was incorrect.

This is shown by what I quoted; the underlined portion shows how the latter component was incorrect, and the italics show how the former component was correct:

SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.


This wasn't apparent?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:20 pm

A couple of definitions from the Pāli texts may help inform the discussion. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī offers the following:

    The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness.

The Milindapañha explains sati as follows:

    “What, Nāgasena, is the characteristic mark of mindfulness?”

    “Noting and keeping in mind. As mindfulness springs up in the mind of the recluse, he repeatedly notes the wholesome and unwholesome, blameless and blameworthy, insignificant and important, dark and light qualities and those that resemble them thinking, ‘These are the four foundations of mindfulness, these the four right efforts, these the four bases of success, these the five controlling faculties, these the five moral powers, these the seven factors of enlightenment, these are the eight factors of the noble path, this is serenity, this insight, this vision and this freedom.’ Thus does he cultivate those qualities that are desirable and shun those that should be avoided.”...

    “How is keeping in mind a mark of mindfulness?”

    “As mindfulness springs up in the mind, he searches out the categories of good qualities and their opposites thinking, ‘Such and such qualities are beneficial and such are harmful’. Thus does he make what is unwholesome in himself disappear and maintain what is good.”
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