Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

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dhamma follower
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

Hi Dmytri,
this sutta also defines the ways of establishing sati, namely, four satipatthana.
Does it define the ways of establishing sati or does it define samma sati?

Regards,
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Assaji
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

Hi Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:Does it define the ways of establishing sati or does it define samma sati?
First, this sutta (48.10) gives the definition of "sati", which is also given in other suttas, for example, the preceding one, 48.9.

Second, it gives the standard definition of four satipatthana, which is also given in many other suttas.
IMHO, the definition of four satipatthana contributes to the definition of "sati".

The earliest and most reliable explanation of this "satipatthana" definition is given in Vibhanga:
357. Anupassīti. Tattha katamā anupassanā? Yā paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā paṇḍiccaṃ kosallaṃ nepuññaṃ vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā bhūri medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṃ patodo paññā paññindriyaṃ paññābalaṃ paññāsatthaṃ paññāpāsādo paññāāloko paññāobhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṃ amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘anupassanā’’. Imāya anupassanāya upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato upapanno sampanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati ‘‘anupassī’’ti.

358. Viharatīti. Iriyati vattati pāleti yapeti yāpeti carati viharati. Tena vuccati ‘‘viharatī’’ti.

359. Ātāpīti. Tattha katamo ātāpo [katamaṃ ātāpaṃ (sabbattha)]? Yo cetasiko vīriyārambho…pe… sammāvāyāmo – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘ātāpo’’. Iminā ātāpena upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato upapanno sampanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati ‘‘ātāpī’’ti.

360. Sampajānoti. Tattha katamaṃ sampajaññaṃ? Yā paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā paṇḍiccaṃ kosallaṃ nepuññaṃ vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā bhūri medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṃ patodo paññā paññindriyaṃ paññābalaṃ paññāsatthaṃ paññāpāsādo paññāāloko paññāobhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṃ amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi – idaṃ vuccati ‘‘sampajaññaṃ’’. Iminā sampajaññena upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato upapanno sampanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati ‘‘sampajāno’’ti.

361. Satimāti. Tattha katamā sati? Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā sati satindriyaṃ satibalaṃ sammāsati – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘sati’’. Imāya satiyā upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato upapanno sampanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati ‘‘satimā’’ti.

362. Vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassanti. Tattha katamo loko? Sveva kāyo loko. Pañcapi upādānakkhandhā loko. Ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘loko’’. Tattha katamā abhijjhā? Yo rāgo sārāgo…pe… cittassa sārāgo – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘abhijjhā’’. Tattha katamaṃ domanassaṃ? Yaṃ cetasikaṃ asātaṃ cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ cetosamphassajaṃ asātaṃ dukkhaṃ vedayitaṃ cetosamphassajā asātā dukkhā vedanā – idaṃ vuccati ‘‘domanassaṃ’’. Iti ayañca abhijjhā idañca domanassaṃ imamhi loke vinītā honti paṭivinītā santā samitā vūpasantā atthaṅgatā abbhatthaṅgatā appitā byappitā sositā visositā byantīkatā. Tena vuccati ‘‘vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassa’’nti.
Sorry that I don't give the full translation, but I will write the main points.

In the paragraph 357 "anupassanā" (translated as "focusing on") is explained with the words related to wisdom, knowledge and discrimination, and with the "dhamma-vicaya" (discrimination of ways of behavior) factor . In the paragraph 361 "sati" is explained with the words related to memory and remembrance. So they have nothing in common, and just act together.

The explanation of "anupassanā" is nearly identical to the explanation of "sampajañña" (translated as "being alert") in the paragraph 360.

So, the "focusing on" has to do with awareness/alertness (sampajañña), and not with remembrance/mindfulness (sati).

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Don't go quoting paragraphs of Pali with an actual translation.

And again, please stay on topic. Off topic msgs well be removed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:Does it define the ways of establishing sati or does it define samma sati?
IMHO, the definition of four satipatthana contributes to the definition of "sati".

The earliest and most reliable explanation of this "satipatthana" definition is given in Vibhanga:

Best wishes, Dmytro
Did you mean this sutta or a different one?:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

where we read:

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness."

Regards,

PS: I hope this point is still considered ON topic, undirectly?
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Dhamma Follower,

In the case of samma-sati, it is defined through four satipathana.

Best wishes, Dmytro
This is what I wanted to point out.

I've had a quick look at the book again, and got the feeling that "bare attention" was only one of many aspects of sati that Ven. Analayo tries to explore in his book. Even in the part where he talks about sati as bare attention, he also mentions the sense-restraint function of sati (page 58-59).

What I personally feel necessary to discuss about is this:

"Analyo notes that these are more possible objects of mindfuless than those specifically listed in the satipatthana sutta."

And in the Ven's own words:

"...to speak of "satipatthana" is less a question of the nature of the object chosen than of "attending" to whatever situation with a balance attitude and with mindfulness being "present""

IMHO, if the Buddha did make the distinction between sati and samma sati, and went on listing all the objects of samma sati (as in the Maha-vibhaga sutta), that means the objects of sati ARE important in defining whether it is samma sati or not.

Ven. also makes a point that in order to be samma sati, it should be accompanied by attapi-sampajana. I agree with that totally. However, if the objects are removed from the constituents of samma sati, I am affraid the implication of it will much affect the practice.

The objects mentioned in this sutta are not random, but all belong to nama-rupa, and come in an obvious order from gross to subtle, from using common-sense concepts to much refined basic factors and advanced stages of understanding. Therefore, it is an extremely bold step from the Ven's part to include other objects to this list.

Our natural tendency is to turn outwards to concepts and to proliferate. If we are told that any object is fine as long as there is remembering, the mind will just keeps on following this pattern and will not be able to see its nature (and actually mindfulness will be lost in the first place!)

Regards,
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

A new thread has been started with an off topic posting to this thread.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10583" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Samvega »

Okay, I'm back. I'm truly sorry about the lapsed time. I have been a little overwhelmed this year at work. I'm going to to try for about 1 chapter every 2 weeks. I'd also like to see if there are any volunteers to pick up and lead with some chapters.

Chapter 2: The "Definition" Part of the Satipatthana Sutta

The chapter is essentially about the definition of Samma Sati (Right MIndfulness)

2.1 Contemplation

The definition part of the satipatthana sutta repeatedly makes use of the word anupassati. It's generally translated as "contemplation". As in "He abides contemplating feelings, diligent, clearly knowing...". Anupassati is derived from passati "to see" with a the prefix "anu" for emphasis. It literally means "To closely observe".

One of the most historically puzzling things about the satipatthana sutta has been why, in the definition part, does the sutta repeat itself in regards to the instruction for what is to be contemplated. What does the sutta mean when it gives the instruction to abide "contemplating the body in the body"?

Analayo believes that the first instance of "body" in the sentence signifies the specific body being contemplated. That is, either your own or somebody elses. The second instance of "body" in the sentence is in regards to a specific aspect of the body, such as the breath, or posture, or constitution. There is evidence to support this use of the word "body" because in one sutta the Buddha speaks of the process of breathing as "a body among bodies".

He extention of the phrase reads "in regard to your own body or the bodies of others, direct awareness to its impermanent nature evident in different aspects of the body, such as the process of breathing..."

2.2 The significance of being diligent (Atapi)

There are 4 qualities that are required for satipatthana: Diligence, Clearly Knowing, Midfulness, and Freedom from desires and discontent

Analayo uses this section to discuss the idea that perhaps can put worth too much effort on the path and that it is important ro walk a middle path between self-mortification and laziness. He notes that the proper reading of Atapi is something along the lines of " balances but sustained application of energy", and that it is an essential quality to satipatthana.

2.3 Clearly Knowing (Sampajana)

In order to devine its meaning, Analayo uses a series of examples from the sutta's where the word sampajana is used. He comes to the conclusing that in all cases it simple seems to mean "the ability to sully grasp or comprehend what is taking place."

Analayo notes that sampajana aids in the cultivation of wisdom, but does not necessitate it. For instance, it is possible to "clearly know" that you are lying to someone, but not be doing so wisely. It's unclear at this point whether Sampajana is REQUIRED to wisdom (panna) to arise.

2.4 Mindfulness and Clear Knowledge

In the sutta's, Sampajana is usually accommpanied with sati (mindfuless) and combined into one word: satisampajanna: mindfulness and clear knowledge.

It seems that these two qualities work in tandem to bring about wisdom. That is "clear knowledge has the task of processing the input gathered by mindful observation". These two things, mindfulness and clear knowledge seem very similar and nuanced. Is it possible to be mindful without clearly knowing? What would that look like? Sati is explored more in the next chapter and will perhaps provide us with an answer.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Gena1480 »

Dmytro
sati is recollection
recollection of 32 parts of the body
recollection of 3 types of feeling
recollection of ill mind, sense desire mind.
recollection of mental constructions.
recollection is like finding what you have been searching for.
directing the mind or direct attention, is part of right concentration.
the function of sati is recollection or finding what has been lost.
if 4 foundation of sati is developed
the mind will not get lost, thus it won't be in delusion.
metta
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Gena1480 wrote:Dmytro
sati is recollection
recollection of 32 parts of the body
recollection of 3 types of feeling
recollection of ill mind, sense desire mind.
recollection of mental constructions.
recollection is like finding what you have been searching for.
directing the mind or direct attention, is part of right concentration.
the function of sati is recollection or finding what has been lost.
if 4 foundation of sati is developed
the mind will not get lost, thus it won't be in delusion.
metta
Please stay on topic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by manas »

Hi samvega, all,

I was reading through some material on 'access to insight' and came across this, which is of relevance to the discussion here:
Mindfulness & Alertness

"Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk is mindful.

"And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Discernment (vl: perception) is known to him as it arises, known as it persists, known as it subsides. This is how a monk is alert. So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all."

— SN 47.35
(from this page, about 2/3 of the way down though: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... l#Heading3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can see that while sati and sampajanna work in tandem, that yet again - going by this definiton - they have slightly different functions. (I will leave the analysis to others who can better frame it in words, at present I can see a difference, but I hesitate to attempt to clearly define it as yet, I need to think about it for a while.)
Last edited by manas on Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by ancientbuddhism »

What Does Mindfulness Really Mean? A Canonical Perspective - Bodhi (2011)
The purpose of this paper is to determine the meaning and function of mindfulness meditation using as the source of inquiry the Pāli Canon, the oldest complete collection of Buddhist texts to survive intact. Mindfulness is the chief factor in the practice of satipaṭṭhāna, the best known system of Buddhist meditation. In descriptions of satipaṭṭhāna two terms constantly recur: mindfulness (sati) and clear comprehension (sampajañña). An understanding of these terms based on the canonical texts is important not only from a philological angle but because such understanding has major bearings on the actual practice of meditation. The word sati originally meant ‘memory,’ but the Buddha ascribed to this old term a new meaning determined by the aims of his teaching. This meaning, the author holds, might best be characterized as ‘lucid awareness.’ He questions the common explanation of mindfulness as ‘bare attention,’ pointing out problems that lurk behind both words in this expression. He also briefly discusses the role of clear comprehension (sampajañña) and shows that it serves as a bridge between the observational function of mindfulness and the development of insight. Finally, he takes up the question whether mindfulness can legitimately be extracted from its traditional context and employed for secular purposes. He maintains that such non-traditional applications of mindfulness are acceptable and even admirable on the ground that they help alleviate human suffering, but he also cautions against a reductionist understanding of mindfulness and urges that investigators respect the religious tradition in which it is rooted.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

ancientbuddhism wrote:What Does Mindfulness Really Mean? A Canonical Perspective - Bodhi (2011). . .
[/quote]Thanks. It is a good addition to the thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Chapter 3:Sati (Part One)

Post by Samvega »

Before starting, I'd just like to note the the person posting as Sam Vega is not me.

Chapter 3: Sati Part One

3.1 The Early Buddhist Approach to Knowledge

Ancient India recognized three sources of knowledge: oral tradition, logical reasoning, and direct intuition (gained through meditation). The Buddha placed his philosophical emphasis into the third category. Although not completely discounting the other two modes, they are considered unreliable and subordinate to direct intuition.

Unfortunately it is and even in the Buddha's time was often the case that direct personal experience might illuminate only part of the picture. This can lead one to incorrectly conclude that their personal experience is the only truth. In other words, "this is what I experienced in meditation, so if other people don't experience this they must be doing it wrong." (See the elephant and blind men parable)

This is why oral tradition and logical reasoning must not be cast aside entirely. The oral tradition of meditation instruction, as well as the sutta, help to guide our minds to seeing the ful picture.

3.2 Sati

Sati is related to the pali word "sarati", which means "too remember". Sati has a strong connotation with recollection, but IS NOT ITSELF RECOLLECTION. Sati is not memory but is instead a faculty that "facilitates and enables memory". If sati is present, then memory will be able to function well. In the footnotes, Analayo quotes Nanamoli: " keen attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory of the past ... midnfulness and memory ... the keenness of one naturally leads to the clarity of the other".

In the context of satipattana, Sati loses it's connotation with recollection. It fuctions simply as awareness of the present moment. Commentaries support this interpretation by assigning Sati with the characteristic quality of "presence".

3.3 The Role and Position of Sati

To ascertain the role of Sati in practice, Analayo looks at Sati in the context of the faculties and powers, the noble eighfold path, and the awakening factors. In the faculties and powers, as well as in the noble eightfold path, Sati is sandwhiched between energy (effort) and concentration. According to Analayo, this mirrors a natural progression in the devolopment of sati, as beginning meditation require significant energy to counter distraction at first. Sati compliments/supports effort and concentration.

In contrast Sati appears formost at the top of the list of awakening factors. Sati constitutes the foundation of the those factors that bring about realization. According to the anapanasati sutta, the factors arise sequentially, and are consequent of the presence of sati.

One very interesting note is the fact that the sutta's use the word sati in the definition of "right sati". This means that "sati" in general, is not the same as "right sati". Indeed, contrary the orthodox Theravada position, Analayo concludes with the sarvastivadins that sati is not in and of itself a wholesome mental factor. There is a such this as "wrong sati" which is not supported by diligence (atapi) and clear knowledge (sampajana). To be right sati, it must be supported by atapi and samajana, and must be complemented with a mind free from discontent and directed properly at either body, feelings, mind, or dhammas.

3.4 Sati Imagery

To be continued...
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Sam Vara »

Before starting, I'd just like to note the the person posting as Sam Vega is not me.
Apologies, Samvega. I didn't know that a similar name had already been "taken". I will wait to see if I get any responses to my current postings, and then I will change my name on this site.
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Ytrog »

Sam Vega wrote:
Before starting, I'd just like to note the the person posting as Sam Vega is not me.
Apologies, Samvega. I didn't know that a similar name had already been "taken". I will wait to see if I get any responses to my current postings, and then I will change my name on this site.
Such things can happen. Don't worry ;)

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