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Monasticim and parental permission - Dhamma Wheel

Monasticim and parental permission

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
vitellius
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Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:20 pm

Dear friends,

I was following threads on this topic on E-Sangha, but I've recently found an interesting opinion that wasn't mentioned there.

Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw said that there is no need for parental permission to become a monk if parents are not Buddhists.

I'm interested in a ground in Dhamma-Vinaya and the Commentaries for such practice.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:22 am


vitellius
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:56 am

Thank you, Bhante.

Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw is known for quite strict observance of Vinaya, and there must be some ground for this. I will try to find out through his kappiya.

Anyway, has anyone else got any suggestions?

vitellius
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:32 am


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Dhammanando
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:33 pm

Hi Oleksandr,

Thanks for investigating the matter, but I don't agree that the passage supports the sayadaw's view. Since Sāriputta's brother, Revata, is only seven years old, the Dhp-a narrative concerns his going forth as a sāmaṇera, not his full acceptance as a bhikkhu. As such it has no bearing on the Vinaya issue of obtaining parental permission if one wishes to obtain upasampadā.

When Sāriputta says, mama mātāpitaro micchādiṭṭhikā, kiṃ tehi āpucchitehi ("my mother and father are holders of wrong view, so why bother taking leave of them?"), as I see it he is not abbrogating the Vinaya obligation to obtain parental permission (for it doesn't apply here), nor introducing any amendment to the Vinaya (something that he as a disciple would have no authority to do), but merely announcing his intention to dispense with conventional courtesies.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

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Dhammanando
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:59 pm

A further point that occurs to me is that the saydaw's implied equation of "holders of wrong view" (micchādiṭṭhiko) with "non-Buddhists" is to say the least problematic. In the Pali commentaries followers of non-Buddhist doctrines who hold to kammavāda are not classed as micchādiṭṭhiko.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

vitellius
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:03 am


vitellius
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:14 pm

In Ratthapala sutta (MN82) a young man declares a "hunger strike" to gain parental consent for his ordination:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I wonder, if he would die, his starvation would be a kusala or akusala (like other suicides) kamma?

(Please don't take this question too serious ;) )

Bankei
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Bankei » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:53 am

I recall reading of a 'loophole' whereby if the applicant threatens to harm himself, such as climbing up a tree and threatening to jump, then it is allowable for monks to ordain him without the permission.

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BlackBird
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby BlackBird » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:01 am

The most venerable Sariputta, Marshal of the Dhamma did not have his mother's permission to ordain, IIRC.
How should we see this in light of the rule?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:20 am

Image




suanck
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby suanck » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:17 am

In the present day, I wonder if this rule of seeking parents' permission is strictly applied, especially for mature adults who live independently from their parents?

Suan

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:04 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:58 am

I am wondering
if a father left home, and gave up custody to the mother would the adult son or daughter need to get permission of them also?

I have a suspicion they wouldn't.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Paññāsikhara » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:32 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

vitellius
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:08 pm


vitellius
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby vitellius » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:11 pm


Paññāsikhara
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Paññāsikhara » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:45 pm

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby pink_trike » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:58 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

Bankei
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Re: Monasticim and parental permission

Postby Bankei » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:39 pm

I ordained in Thailand without my parents permission. It was never asked if I had the permission, other than in Pali during the ceremony where I was instructed to just answer yes to everything (and 1 no if I remember correctly). I did have a 'surrogate' mother in the form of a Thai aunty at the ceremony, so maybe this was taken as being enough.

Re the issue about the tree I mentioned above, I cannot find anything at the moment, but have found a reference to an article (I don't have a copy):

Crosby, Kate 2005 "Only if you let go of that Tree: Ordination without Parental Consent according to Theravada Vinaya." Buddhist Studies Review


Hope this helps

Bankei
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Bankei


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