Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:54 am

I apologize if the topic has already been covered earlier. There have been recently people spreading wrong views about the meaning of the word sati, which is so important for the practice of the Buddha's teaching. By doing so, they participate to the disappearance of the Dhamma, which is why I felt I had to make up for it with this thread.

So sati has one meaning of recollection, remembrance given for example there:
ariyasāvako satimā hoti parama sati-nepakkena samannāgato, cira-katam-pi cirabhāsitam-pi saritā anussaritā.

a noble disciple is mindful, endowed with excellent sati and carefulness, he recalls and remembers what was done, what was said long ago.

http://www.suttapitaka.net/sutta/angutt ... .html#sati

So far so good. But this is not the only meaning of sati as it has been declared, and so on the ground that there is no other definition of sati in the suttas.

But there is a well-known definition of samma-sati:
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ; citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ; dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ.

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Here it is very clear that samma-sati is a presence of the mind applied to what happens in the present moment in body, feeling, mind and mental phenomena.

Now samma-sati is a particular type of sati. So the definition of sati must be wider than the definition of samma-sati. Therefore the definition of sati must include this definition.

So sati has at least two meanings: recollection/remembrance and presence of the mind in the reality of mind and matter.

[Edit 30 Nov 2554:]
And most importantly, in the context of meditation practice like anapanassati or satipatthana, it is evident that sati should be as close as possible to samma-sati, so it is the second definition that applies in this case.

The relation between these two meanings of sati is explained here:
These two meanings are related in the sense that an awareness supported by the collectedness of concentration is a necessary condition to get proper perception and understanding of what is happening in the present moment, which enables an easy recollection at a later time of what precisely was happening, of what was said, what was done at a prior moment, even a long time before. In one case sati is defined as per what is happening in the present moment, and in the other as per the qualities that develop in the bhikkhu when he has been endowed with this awareness of the present moment for a long time.
http://www.suttapitaka.net/glossary.html#sati
Last edited by Sekha on Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:04 am

To the argument above mentioned, Dmytro replied:

Dmytro wrote:Vibhanga sutta describes the right ways to apply the eight factors. The description of right action:

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action."

doesn't mean that the definition of "action" is "abstaining".

Similarly, the definition of 'sati' through four satipatthanas dosnt mean that the definition of "remembrance" (sati) is "being focused" (anupassana).

This argument does not make its point, because the statement should rather be "the definition of right action includes abstaining". "right action" (including "abstaining") is a sub-category of "action", therefore "abstaining" is included in the larger general definition of "action".

In the same way, "the definition of samma-sati includes anupassana". "samma-sati" (including "anupassana") is a sub-category of "sati", therefore "anupassana" is included in the larger general definition of "sati".

Sometimes to discuss Pali words properly we need to recollect the basics of the Set theory.

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:10 am

I don't think the Buddha's teaching is in any danger of disappearing even if some people misunderstand it, or misrepresent it. It might, if people only argue about it without practising it.

Memory (sati) or mindfulness (sati) — like most Pāli words has different meanings in different contexts.

Let's not get lost in wordy warfare.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:26 pm

My perception is that the teaching of Buddha is in danger every time someone misunderstands it or misrepresents it.

AN 2.42 wrote:Ye te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū duggahitehi suttantehi byañjanappatirūpakehi atthañca dhammañca paṭivāhanti te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū bahujanāhitāya paṭipannā bahujanāsukhāya, bahuno janassa anatthāya ahitāya dukkhāya devamanussānaṃ. Bahuñca te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū apuññaṃ pasavanti, te cimaṃ saddhammaṃ antaradhāpenti.

Bhikkhus, those bhikkhus who misunderstand the suttas with similar letters misunderstand the meaning and the Teaching. It is for the harm and unpleasantness of many gods and men. They accure much demerit and work for the disappearance of this good Teaching.


AN 1.308 wrote:Bhikkhus, a certain person is born in the world for the harm, bad luck and unpleasantness of many gods and men. Who is it? It is one with wrong and perverted view. He pulls out many from right view and establishes them in wrong view. He is born in the world for the harm, bad luck and unpleasantness of many gods and men.


more importantly here, this one applies specifically to the misunderstanding of an important notion such as sati:
AN 1.312 wrote:Durakkhāte, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye yo ca samādapeti yañca samādapeti yo ca samādapito tathattāya paṭipajjati sabbe te bahuṃ apuññaṃ pasavanti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Durakkhātattā, bhikkhave, dhammassā

Bhikkhus, if the Teaching and Discipline is incorrectly interpreted and caused to be observed much demerit is accrued both by the interpreter and those who observe it on account of the incorrect interpretation of the Teaching.


Moreover:
AN 1.316
Bhikkhus, when the Teaching and Discipline is incorrectly interpreted, one with aroused effort abides in unpleasantness, because of the incorrect interpretation of the teaching.


:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Cyberia

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby ancientbuddhism » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:52 pm

I know I already mentioned some of this here and other places, but ‘present moment awareness’ for sati is an interpretation, whereas the context of sati as it is found in the suttas will help to guide interpretation.

When that context is Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna, there are specific tasks sati is bringing ‘recollection’ to for contemplative work; with ānāpāna to establish an expansive calm with the breath, and with satipaṭṭhāna it is working with ātāpa and sampajāna to bring effort to examination of mind-states which arise at feeling.
Anuvicca papañca nāmarūpaṃ
ajjhattaṃ bahiddhā ca rogamūlaṃ,
sabbarogamūlabandhanā pamutto
anuvidito tādi pavuccate tathattā
.

“Having known the naming of objects,
With its proliferation, its root in illness – within and without;
One is released from bondage to the root of all illness.
And thus is called the Knowing One – the Such.

– Sn. 3.6 (Sabhiyasuttaṃ)

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:38 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:When that context is Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna, there are specific tasks sati is bringing ‘recollection’ to for contemplative work; with ānāpāna to establish an expansive calm with the breath, and with satipaṭṭhāna it is working with ātāpa and sampajāna to bring effort to examination of mind-states which arise at feeling.


It seems that ātāpa, sampajāna, and satimā are referenced in MN 118 as part of the answer to ""And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?" Therefore, ānāpānasati is taught as an example of how satipaṭṭhāna is done correctly.

Perhaps satimā is a recollection of either ānāpānasati or kayagatasati instruction (for example), yet satimā operates the same way in each case - and so too with ātāpa and sampajāna. Their particular contexts may differ, but their engagement applies to any satipaṭṭhāna practice which is sammasati, ānāpānasati included.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Nyana
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:03 pm

The Sankrit root smṛ and the term smṛti predate Buddhism. In the ancient Ṛgveda, smṛ means "to remember" or "to keep in mind." Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary includes the following for each:

    smṛ

  • to remember, recollect, bear in mind, call to mind, think of, be mindful of
  • to remember or think of with sorrow or regret
  • to hand down memoriter, teach, declare
  • to recite, to be remembered or recorded or declared (as a law) or mentioned in the smṛti
  • to be declared or regarded as, to cause to remember or be mindful of or regret
  • to remind any one of, to wish to remember

    smṛti

  • f. remembrance, reminiscence, thinking of or upon (loc. or comp.), calling to mind (smṛtim api te na yānti, " they are not even thought of "), memory
  • memory as one of the vyabhicāri-bhāvas (q.v.)
  • Memory (personified either as the daughter of dakṣa and wife of aṅgiras or as the daughter of dharma and medhā)
  • the whole body of sacred tradition or what is remembered by human teachers (in contradistinction to śruti or what is directly heard or revealed to the ṛṣis)

These ancient meanings of "remembrance" and "keeping in mind" were retained in the Buddhist canonical discourses as well as the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda commentarial traditions. For example, the faculty of sati (satindriya) is defined in SN 48.9 Paṭhamavibhaṅga Sutta as follows:

    Katamañca, bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako satimā hoti paramena satinepakkena samannāgato cirakatampi cirabhāsitampi saritā anussaritā – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, satindriyaṃ.

    And what, monks, is the faculty of sati? Here, monks, a noble disciple is satimā, possessing supreme sati and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. This is called the faculty of sati.

Likewise, in SN 46.3 Sīlasutta we find the following passage relating to the awakening factor of sati (satisambojjhaṅga):

    Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu tathā vūpakaṭṭho viharanto taṃ dhammaṃ anussarati anuvitakketi, satisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno āraddho hoti; satisambojjhaṅgaṃ tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu bhāveti; satisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati.

    Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of sati, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati comes to fulfillment through development in the monk.

And SN 45.8 Vibhaṅga Sutta we find the description of right sati (sammāsati):

    Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ; dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ – ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsati.

    And what, monks, is right sati? Here, monks, a monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, satimā, having removed covetousness and displeasure with regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, fully aware, satimā, having removed covetousness and displeasure with regard to the world. He dwells contemplating mind in mind, ardent, fully aware, satimā, having removed covetousness and displeasure with regard to the world. He dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, ardent, fully aware, satimā, having removed covetousness and displeasure with regard to the world.

It's worth noticing that this description of right sati is qualified by being ardent (ātāpī), fully aware (sampajāna), and satimā. To clarify the meanings of these terms we can turn to the Satipaṭṭhānavibhaṅga of the Pāli Abhidhammapiṭaka, which gives the following word analysis for each:

    “Ātāpī” ti. Tattha, katamaṁ ātappaṁ? Yo cetasiko viriyārambho nikkamo parakkamo, uyyāmo vāyāmo ussāho ussoḷhī thāmo dhiti asithilaparakkamatā, anikkhittachandatā anikkhittadhuratā dhurasampaggāho, viriyaṁ Viriyindriyaṁ Viriyabalaṁ Sammāvāyāmo – ayaṁ vuccati “ātappaṁ”. Iminā ātappena upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato, upapanno samupapanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati “ātāpī” ti.

    “Sampajāno” ti. Tattha, katamaṁ sampajaññaṁ? Yā paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo, sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā, paṇḍiccaṁ kosallaṁ nepuññaṁ vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā, bhūrī medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṁ patodo, paññā Paññindriyaṁ Paññābalaṁ paññāsatthaṁ, paññāpāsādo paññā-āloko paññā-obhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṁ, amoho dhammavicayo Sammādiṭṭhi – idaṁ vuccati “sampajaññaṁ”. Iminā sampajaññena upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato, upapanno samupapanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati “sampajāno” ti.

    “Satimā” ti. Tattha, katamā sati? Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā, dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā, sati Satindriyaṁ Satibalaṁ Sammāsati – ayaṁ vuccati “sati”. Imāya satiyā upeto hoti samupeto upāgato samupāgato, upapanno samupapanno samannāgato. Tena vuccati “satimā” ti.

    “Ardent”. Herein, what is ardour? Whatever mental exercise of effort, exertion, great exertion, enterprise, endeavour, attempt, travail, vigour, courage, exertion that is not lax, not putting aside of (wholesome) desire, not putting aside of responsibility, being taken up with responsibility, effort, the faculty of effort, the strength of effort, right endeavour – this is called “ardour”. With this ardour he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “ardent” is said.

    “Full awareness”. Herein, what is full awareness? That which is wisdom, knowing, investigation, deep investigation, investigation of (the nature of) things, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, skilfulness, subtlety, clarification, thoughtfulness, consideration, breadth, intelligence, guidance, insight, full awareness, examination, wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the strength of wisdom, the sword of wisdom, height of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, flame of wisdom, treasure of wisdom, non-delusion, investigation of (the nature of) things, right view – this is called “full awareness”. With this full awareness he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “full awareness” is said.

    “Satimāti”. Herein, what is sati? That which is sati, recollection, recall, sati, remembrance, bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing, sati, the faculty of sati, the strength of sati, right sati – this is called “sati”. With this sati he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “satimā” is said.

And so it's clear that the meaning of sati as "remembrance" and "keeping in mind" was still very much retained in the Vibhaṅga (and in parallel passages in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī).

Likewise, the early meanings of remembrance and keeping in mind are retained in the Milindapañha, which gives the characteristics of sati as "calling to mind" or "noting" (apilāpana) and "taking hold" or "keeping in mind" (upaggaṇhana). These two characteristics are further explained as follows:

    “Sati, mahārāja, uppajjamānā kusalākusalasāvajjānavajjahīnappaṇītakaṇhasukkasappaṭibhāgadhamme apilāpeti ‘ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, ime cattāro sammappadhānā, ime cattāro iddhipādā, imāni pañcindriyāni, imāni pañca balāni, ime satta bojjhaṅgā, ayaṃ ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, ayaṃ samatho, ayaṃ vipassanā, ayaṃ vijjā, ayaṃ vimuttī’ti. Tato yogāvacaro sevitabbe dhamme sevati, asevitabbe dhamme na sevati. Bhajitabbe dhamme bhajati abhajittabbe dhamme na bhajati. Evaṃ kho, mahārāja, apilāpanalakkhaṇā satī”ti...

    “Sati, mahārāja, uppajjamānā hitāhitānaṃ dhammānaṃ gatiyo samanveti ‘ime dhammā hitā, ime dhammā ahitā. Ime dhammā upakārā, ime dhammā anupakārā’ti. Tato yogāvacaro ahite dhamme apanudeti, hite dhamme upaggaṇhāti. Anupakāre dhamme apanudeti, upakāre dhamme upaggaṇhāti. Evaṃ kho, mahārāja, upaggaṇhanalakkhaṇā satī”ti.

    “As sati springs up in the mind of the recluse, he repeatedly notes the wholesome and unwholesome, blameless and blameworthy, insignificant and important, dark and light qualities and those that resemble them thinking, ‘These are the four foundations of mindfulness, these the four right efforts, these the four bases of success, these the five controlling faculties, these the five moral powers, these the seven factors of enlightenment, these are the eight factors of the noble path, this is serenity, this insight, this vision and this freedom.’ Thus does he cultivate those qualities that are desirable and shun those that should be avoided.”...

    “As sati springs up in the mind, he searches out the categories of good qualities and their opposites thinking, ‘Such and such qualities are beneficial and such are harmful’. Thus does he make what is unwholesome in himself disappear and maintain what is good.”

Nyana
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:10 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:When that context is Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna, there are specific tasks sati is bringing ‘recollection’ to for contemplative work; with ānāpāna to establish an expansive calm with the breath, and with satipaṭṭhāna it is working with ātāpa and sampajāna to bring effort to examination of mind-states which arise at feeling.

Probably one of the most succinct and precise definitions of sati is given in the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya:

    smṛtir ālambanāsaṃpramoṣaḥ

    Smṛti is not losing the object [of the mind].

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:37 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:My perception is that the teaching of Buddha is in danger every time someone misunderstands it or misrepresents it.
However, your quotes talks only about bhikkhus, not just any person.

I don't think you're being very mindful at all in starting threads attacking another forum member for expressing a different opinion. Your approach is confrontational, and not conducive to improving anyone's understanding.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:04 pm

Bhante, with all due respect:

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:My perception is that the teaching of Buddha is in danger every time someone misunderstands it or misrepresents it.
However, your quotes talks only about bhikkhus, not just any person.

Dhamma is Dhamma either for monks or laymen or animals or any living being. By following this line of reasoning, one would conclude that the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (for example) is addressed only to monks ('bhikkhave, bhikkhu') so it does not apply to bhikkhunis and lay followers.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Your approach is confrontational,

True. But there is no mention anywhere that confrontational approach is necessarily unskillful. The Buddha makes use of it in many suttas (striking example here), and it is well-known that monks admonish one another, not to mention the reason why the first council was gathered and so on.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Your approach is (...) not conducive to improving anyone's understanding.

Again with all due respect, unless you have direct knowledge of what happens in the mind of all those who read the OP of this thread, this is a chancy judgement, liable not to be partaken.

However, as you said:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Let's not get lost in wordy warfare.


Metta

:anjali:
Last edited by Sekha on Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:17 pm

Greetings Ñāṇa,

whatever amount of text you copy and paste, it is not possible to debunk what is stated in early texts with later litterature

Metta

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

Nyana
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:51 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:it is not possible to debunk what is stated in early texts with later litterature

Fortunately, the suttas and abhidhamma are in agreement on this issue.

A good practical introduction is offered in Mindfulness Defined by Ven. Ṭhānissaro.
Last edited by Nyana on Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:22 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:When that context is Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna, there are specific tasks sati is bringing ‘recollection’ to for contemplative work; with ānāpāna to establish an expansive calm with the breath, and with satipaṭṭhāna it is working with ātāpa and sampajāna to bring effort to examination of mind-states which arise at feeling.

Probably one of the most succinct and precise definitions of sati is given in the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya:

    smṛtir ālambanāsaṃpramoṣaḥ

    Smṛti is not losing the object [of the mind].
That nicely summarizes the practice, but I do not see it being at all at odds with Ven Analayo's discussion of sati I linked the thread about his book.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:55 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:it is not possible to debunk what is stated in early texts with later litterature

Fortunately, the suttas and abhidhamma are in agreement on this issue.

A good practical introduction is offered in Mindfulness Defined by Ven. Ṭhānissaro.

Hi Ñāṇa,
Please note that there is no specific reason to consider Thanissaro B's opinion as authoritative.

But let us settle this conversation once and for all.

Do you recognize that
1) samma-sati is a particular type of sati
2) when one practices either anapanassati or satipatthana, sati should be as close as possible to samma-sati
?

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

Nyana
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:43 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:Please note that there is no specific reason to consider Thanissaro B's opinion as authoritative.

No one said that there was.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:But let us settle this conversation once and for all.

I've already addressed these points in detail. Apparently you either don't agree or fail to see the common characteristics of sati as presented in the Pāli texts.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:Do you recognize that
1) samma-sati is a particular type of sati
2) when one practices either anapanassati or satipatthana, sati should be as close as possible to samma-sati?

This is obvious.

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:47 am

ok then, you agree with the OP.

:clap:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:24 pm

Wait, do you think that because sammasati is one type of sati, that 'remembrance' is another type of sati?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:35 pm

These two meanings are related in the sense that an awareness supported by the collectedness of concentration is a necessary condition to get proper perception and understanding of what is happening in the present moment, which enables an easy recollection at a later time of what precisely was happening, of what was said, what was done at a prior moment, even a long time before. In one case sati is defined as per what is happening in the present moment, and in the other as per the qualities that develop in the bhikkhu when he has been endowed with this awareness of the present moment for a long time.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:48 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:In one case sati is defined as per what is happening in the present moment


In terms of practice, sammasati is defined in part as "ātāpa, sampajāna, and satimā". Since this use of sati is related to the memory aspect of the term, it therefore seems that remembrance is a key component of sammasati, alongside ātāpa and sampajāna. One can only do satipaṭṭhāna if one remembers to do so; otherwise, one's mind will be scattered in the past or the future or among other proliferations.

Does this seem correct?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: French Guiana
Contact:

Re: Meanings of sati undebunkable once and for all

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:59 pm

Not to me.

In my understanding you are being mislead by the posts of Nana and Dmytro and the quotations of late dubious litterature they contain.

Whichever way you understand sati intellectually I suggest you set it aside and you focus only on the practice of anapanassati intensively for a long time. Then all your doubts will fade away, and that's the only way.

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59


Return to “Pali”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests