Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?
So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Re: Nana's post above.... yes, this is something I have thought before too.

It's a legitimate concern, even if there may well be a fully reasonable explanation to account for it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by mikenz66 »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?
So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.
On the other hand, forgetting the philosophical machinations (which are certainly not what one is attending to in a retreat situation...) it might just be something that is commonly observed. Certainly the observation of experience "breaking up" is reported by just about everyone I know personally well enough to discuss such things, and doesn't rely on any theory (I'm not talking about any insight stages here, just what happens when one gets concentrated enough and pays attention enough). Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?
So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.
Does one have to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

mikenz66 wrote:Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.
Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Does one hae to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?
You'll have to clarify what you mean by "rise and fall." This phrase is understood differently in different contexts.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.
Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.
Is it? And those who say they have such experiences?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does one to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?
You'll have to clarify what you mean by "rise and fall." This phrase is understood differently in different contexts.
For example: a thoughts comes into "being" then ends.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.
Is it?
How could it not be?
tiltbillings wrote:And those who say they have such experiences?
It's for each of us to discern if what we are directly perceiving or inferring on the basis of direct perception is valid or invalid.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote: It's for each of us to discern if what we are directly perceiving or inferring on the basis of direct perception is valid or invalid.
If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:]For example: a thought comes into "being" then ends.
If one attends to the recognition of the thought for its entire duration one can inferentially know that it underwent alteration and change (aññathatta & vipariṇāma) during this duration, and then ceased. This duration is relative to the attention given to the object of consciousness, in this case a thought, and is therefore not restricted to any fixed momentary limit.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?
There is no "complaint." One either accepts or at least acquiesces to the view of discrete momentary dhammas or one doesn't. If one doesn't, then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence. It would be like trying to discern the incessant dissolution of unicorns.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?
There is no "complaint." One either accepts or at least acquiesces to the view of discrete momentary dhammas or one doesn't. If one doesn't, then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence. It would be like trying to discern the incessant dissolution of unicorns.
And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?
People claim to experience all sorts of things. Just because someone claims to experience something doesn't mean that their claim is valid. They could very well be basing their claim on incorrect inferences and all sorts of cognitive biases.

For example, there was a time when I uncritically acquiesced to the view of radical momentariness and indeed experienced what I took to be the direct perception of incessant dissolution. Later, I came to understand that this was an inaccurate interpretation of what I was experiencing and I had no alternative but to abandon that view.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?
People claim to experience all sorts of things. Just because someone claims to experience something doesn't mean that their claim is valid. They could very well be basing their claim on incorrect inferences and all sorts of cognitive biases.

For example, there was a time when I uncritically acquiesced to the view of radical momentariness and indeed experienced what I took to be the direct perception of incessant dissolution. Later, I came to understand that this was an inaccurate interpretation of what I was experiencing and I had no alternative but to abandon that view.
And why should we take you as being an arbiter of these things?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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