So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.tiltbillings wrote:And so?Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
Greetings,
Re: Nana's post above.... yes, this is something I have thought before too.
It's a legitimate concern, even if there may well be a fully reasonable explanation to account for it.
Metta,
Retro.
Re: Nana's post above.... yes, this is something I have thought before too.
It's a legitimate concern, even if there may well be a fully reasonable explanation to account for it.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
On the other hand, forgetting the philosophical machinations (which are certainly not what one is attending to in a retreat situation...) it might just be something that is commonly observed. Certainly the observation of experience "breaking up" is reported by just about everyone I know personally well enough to discuss such things, and doesn't rely on any theory (I'm not talking about any insight stages here, just what happens when one gets concentrated enough and pays attention enough). Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.Ñāṇa wrote:So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.tiltbillings wrote:And so?Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
Mike
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
Does one have to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?Ñāṇa wrote:So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.tiltbillings wrote:And so?Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.mikenz66 wrote:Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
You'll have to clarify what you mean by "rise and fall." This phrase is understood differently in different contexts.tiltbillings wrote:Does one hae to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
Is it? And those who say they have such experiences?Ñāṇa wrote:Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.mikenz66 wrote:Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
For example: a thoughts comes into "being" then ends.Ñāṇa wrote:You'll have to clarify what you mean by "rise and fall." This phrase is understood differently in different contexts.tiltbillings wrote:Does one to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
How could it not be?tiltbillings wrote:Is it?Ñāṇa wrote:Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.
It's for each of us to discern if what we are directly perceiving or inferring on the basis of direct perception is valid or invalid.tiltbillings wrote:And those who say they have such experiences?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?Ñāṇa wrote: It's for each of us to discern if what we are directly perceiving or inferring on the basis of direct perception is valid or invalid.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
If one attends to the recognition of the thought for its entire duration one can inferentially know that it underwent alteration and change (aññathatta & vipariṇāma) during this duration, and then ceased. This duration is relative to the attention given to the object of consciousness, in this case a thought, and is therefore not restricted to any fixed momentary limit.tiltbillings wrote:]For example: a thought comes into "being" then ends.
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
There is no "complaint." One either accepts or at least acquiesces to the view of discrete momentary dhammas or one doesn't. If one doesn't, then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence. It would be like trying to discern the incessant dissolution of unicorns.tiltbillings wrote:If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?Ñāṇa wrote:There is no "complaint." One either accepts or at least acquiesces to the view of discrete momentary dhammas or one doesn't. If one doesn't, then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence. It would be like trying to discern the incessant dissolution of unicorns.tiltbillings wrote:If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
People claim to experience all sorts of things. Just because someone claims to experience something doesn't mean that their claim is valid. They could very well be basing their claim on incorrect inferences and all sorts of cognitive biases.tiltbillings wrote:And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?
For example, there was a time when I uncritically acquiesced to the view of radical momentariness and indeed experienced what I took to be the direct perception of incessant dissolution. Later, I came to understand that this was an inaccurate interpretation of what I was experiencing and I had no alternative but to abandon that view.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?
And why should we take you as being an arbiter of these things?Ñāṇa wrote:People claim to experience all sorts of things. Just because someone claims to experience something doesn't mean that their claim is valid. They could very well be basing their claim on incorrect inferences and all sorts of cognitive biases.tiltbillings wrote:And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?
For example, there was a time when I uncritically acquiesced to the view of radical momentariness and indeed experienced what I took to be the direct perception of incessant dissolution. Later, I came to understand that this was an inaccurate interpretation of what I was experiencing and I had no alternative but to abandon that view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723