The 4th Precept & Disclosure

[danieLion]

Does following the fourth precept mean you have to be transparent?

It seems to me disclosing too much or to the wrong people, or in the wrong context, is unskillful. But it also requires concealment of private affairs, which could be interpreted and deception, and therefore wrong speech.
DanieLion

[ground]

Lying is wrong. "Not lying" does not mean disclosing everything.

kind regards

[Khalil Bodhi]

Does following the fourth precept mean you have to be transparent?

It seems to me disclosing too much or to the wrong people, or in the wrong context, is unskillful. But it also requires concealment of private affairs, which could be interpreted and deception, and therefore wrong speech.
DanieLion

Hi DanieLion,

I've always found the following to be the best guide when contemplating how best to prcatice samma vaca and bypass the dilemma of which you speak:

[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html

May you be well!

[danieLion]

Does following the fourth precept mean you have to be transparent?

It seems to me disclosing too much or to the wrong people, or in the wrong context, is unskillful. But it also requires concealment of private affairs, which could be interpreted and deception, and therefore wrong speech.
DanieLion

Hi DanieLion,

I've always found the following to be the best guide when contemplating how best to prcatice samma vaca and bypass the dilemma of which you speak:

[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html

May you be well!

I practice this (and the 5 precepts). The quote implies a lot of concealment (deception?) to me. So, omitting is okay if it's skillful? In fact, with the five samma vaca conditions, you have to omit. E.g., it's usually not wise to share banal murderous impulses, or ordinary sexual cravings, etc... with just any body at any time.

The one that gives me the most pause is "endearing & agreeable to others" because it requires the most guessing. Wouldn't you have to be able to see into the future or read minds to apply it without fail? It, with the other four, makes me think the Buddha was basically saying in most cases and most times it's usually--if not always--best to keep your mouth shut as much as possible--which I have no issue with. It does suggest even more concealment (deception?) though.
D

[nameless]

Intention is important. Omitting something because there is no need to talk about it is different from concealing something with the intent to deceive.

[Khalil Bodhi]

Intention is important. Omitting something because there is no need to talk about it is different from concealing something with the intent to deceive.