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the great rebirth debate - Page 135 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:57 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:10 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:21 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:30 am


chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:50 pm


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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:46 pm


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:50 pm


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:52 pm

But paticcasamuppada never contains a thirteenth nidana, "birth --> death --> rebirth". Isn't that interesting?

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:02 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:06 pm


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:08 pm


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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:17 am

Some reasons that I believe that belief in rebirth is rational:

1) Any kind of true or false statement must come only from thinking source (the mind)
2) No merely physical material or its combination is a thinking source.
3) Therefore, no true or false statement can ever come from only a physical source.
4) We can say true or false statements.
5) Thus the mind that can say true or false statements does not originate and start from physical source at birth.

Therefore thinking source (mind) traces back indefinitely (saṃsara has no discernible beginning) and primarily dependent on mind.

Same for intention (cetanā) and decision to do good or evil. The first instance of intention is dependent upon previous instances of mind and its accumulated qualities.


IMHO,

With best wishes,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:04 pm

I think the first premise is wrong. Computers can also make true/false statements. In fact, it's the only thing they can do. :tongue: Also I don't fully agree with the second one.

santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby santa100 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:10 pm

Actually, a computer could only make true/false statements based on a thinking mind source: the programmer. Without the original OS and algorithms created by humans' mind, it'd remain a useless mass of material. FOr further info., refer to the "Chinese room Thought Experiment" (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room )

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:17 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:25 am

No, because it is still just material that does a calculation. If all people were to die right now, computers would still work. So whether they are created by humans or not does not matter; a computer is now a seperate "entity" capable of making true/false statements. Those statements don't come from a mind, they come from the computer. Of course, the computer does not really think, but then you should rewrite your premise to reflect that, because now it says everything capable of making true/false statements is thinking.

Also this has no scientific support:
2) No merely physical material or its combination is a thinking source.

We don't know enough about the brain to say it is not physically capable of thinking. In fact it may be the opposite, for example it is researched which areas in the brain are responsible for language processing. Thinking is also for a large part language, so at least in part it will take place there.



I belief in rebirth, but trying to proof it with reasoning is not really possible, I think. And I think, when one dies, thinking stops or at least alters very much because the mind leaves the brain.


:namaste:
metta
reflection

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:00 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

pedro1985
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No difference...

Postby pedro1985 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:40 am


Kaktus
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Re: No difference...

Postby Kaktus » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:45 am

English isn´t my native language. So please accept my apologies for my kind of spelling and grammar ;-)

plwk
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Re: No difference...

Postby plwk » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:45 am



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