Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by danieLion »

Hi Ñāṇa,
Ñāṇa wrote:It's common in teachings and texts on vipassanā to hear that mind (nāma) and matter (rūpa) are actually comprised of discrete, momentary things undergoing incessant dissolution (bhaṅga)....

Questions:

(i) Is it really true that mind (nāma) and matter (rūpa) are discrete, momentary things undergoing incessant dissolution?

(ii) Is it really true that matter is comprised of momentary kalāpas which undergo incessant dissolution?

(iii) If so, how do you know this to be true?

(iv) If not, can "insight" into conceptual fictions really be considered insight at all?

:candle:
Re: (i) & (ii). Compare to the four laws of thermodynamics, particularly laws 1 & 3 (a.k.a. entropy) (the "first" law is The Zeroth).
Re: (iii). You don't know. You trust the math (and with crossed fingers, the scientists).
Re: (iv). No. Vipassanā (by necessity) involves tilakkhana experiences, not (contingent) bhaṅga or kalāpas experiences.
DanieLion :heart:
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

danieLion wrote:Re: (i) & (ii). Compare to the four laws of thermodynamics, particularly laws 1 & 3 (a.k.a. entropy) (the "first" law is The Zeroth).
What do the laws of thermodynamics have to do with the mind?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I don't buy into this classification of realism...
There is no real need to.
Either one can establish their conception of a moment independent of their imagination or they cannot.
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I think it is a product of too much philosophies.
Which is so on both side of this argument, traditional and modern, leading to a serious arthrosclerosis of opinions and much of what is of value gets lost.
There were many centuries of Theravāda tradition before this theory made its appearance. What value is there in holding on to untenable conceptual accretions such as this theory of momentariness?
For all of that, dhamma-follower still does not by necessity of any argument you have put forth need to buy that label of realism, but rather than marshalling your impressive learning to fruitlessly try to beat the bejesus out of all of this, rather than tearing it all down, you might want to try to find what in all of this actually works and build on that. That would be far more skilful and interesting, and certainly infinitely less annoying.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

But how does the "untenable" "actually work"?

:shock:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

But how does the "untenable" "actually work"?

:shock:

Metta,
Retro. :)
That is assuming it is all wholly untenable, but if that is the assumption, then poo on it.
But what I said: you might want to try to find what in all of this actually works and build on that. it is kind of interesting as to what is being talked about here. Is it just the notion of discreet, momentary dhammas, or is it that and the subtext of this thread of the Burmese vipassana traditions having no real legitimacy? So, it is all untenable?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:The rapid succession of rise and fall is part of these insights. Otherwise, it is only cinta panna.
But not all rise and fall is rapid. For example a mood or mind-state might persist for many hours. As might a toothache.

Spiny
But if you are able to really attend to these things with concentration and mindfulness, one sees that the mood/mind-state/toothache are a constant flow of change. In one sense a mood may appear to persist to some degree unchanging, but in another sense of careful attention, like a fire, it is always changing.
I agree, there is perpetual change. My point was that categorising this transience as rapid rise and fall is potentially misleading.

Spiny
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote: I agree, there is perpetual change. My point was that categorising this transience as rapid rise and fall is potentially misleading.
Potentially misleading, how so?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:As I understand it (as I've heard it explained by teachers from various Theravada schools), it' is important to be able to see that moods are unstable, otherwise it's very tempting to attach the "self" who is in a "calm meditator mind state".
I agree. Though I also think it's useful to recognise that change takes place over different time-scales, and at different levels.

Spiny
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:For all of that, dhamma-follower still does not by necessity of any argument you have put forth need to buy that label of realism,
If a mind moment can't be objectively established, yet one still insists that there is indeed such a real entity then they are subscribing to a worldview that is based on the notion of truth as constituted by a correspondence between our concepts and statements, on the one hand, and the features of an independent, determinate reality, on the other hand.
tiltbillings wrote:rather than tearing it all down, you might want to try to find what in all of this actually works and build on that.
There is nothing esoteric, mysterious, or hidden about impermanence. Later accretions like the theory of momentariness only muddy the waters.
tiltbillings wrote:That would be far more skilful and interesting, and certainly infinitely less annoying.
It's your choice whether or not you find any of this annoying. The idea of clearing the path, which was initiated by Ñāṇavīra and carried on by Ñāṇananda, continues to be a relevant concern for many Theravāda lay practitioners, monastics, and scholars. This clearing inevitably involves the criticism of historical accretions. Maybe it's time to enlist the far less diplomatic and genteel words of Ven. Sujato. The Mystique of the Abhidhamma:
  • In the later abhidhamma, the treatment of time is dominated by a radical new theory, totally unlike anything in the suttas or even the canonical abhidhamma, the theory of moments (khaṇavāda). This postulates that time is constituted of a series of discrete, indivisible units, rather like a series of billiard balls lined up on a table. Each unit, or ‘moment’, is infinitesimally small, such that billions pass by in a lightning-flash. So while the suttas emphasize the length of time, the abhidhamma emphasizes the shortness. This theory shapes the abhidhamma conception of a whole range of central doctrines. Thus impermanence becomes, not simply being subject to birth and death, rise and fall, but the momentary dissolution of phenomena – one dhamma rises and ceases in an instant, leaving no trace of residue in the next. Samadhi becomes, not an exalted, stable coalescence of mind, but a ‘momentary samadhi’ running after the fluctuations of phenomena. The path becomes, not a gradual program of spiritual development, but a ‘path-moment’, gone in a flash. And the mind itself becomes just a series of ‘mind-moments’.

    Now it is quite possible to take this theory, compare it with the suttas, and refute it point by point. But here I would simply like to point out what an implausible and useless idea it is. Quite obviously, time may be analyzed as finely as we wish, its divisibility determined only by the sharpness of our analytical razor. Any unit of time has a beginning, a middle, and an end. That beginning, too, has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and so on ad infinitum. There is simply no good reason to postulate an ultimate substratum of time to which other strata can be reduced. This idea seems to derive some of its impressiveness from its air of acrid, pessimistic, reductionist severity, which is often mistaken as a sign of really uncompromising wisdom.

    The guiding objective for the formulation of the mind-moment theory would seem to be for exactitude of definition. So while the Buddha spoke of the mind ‘changing while it stands’, the abhidhamma just speaks of ‘standing’. It is much easier to define a static entity than a process evolving over time. This is why a butterfly collector wants to have his butterflies dead, with a pin stuck through their heart and a little label underneath, not madly meandering about in the woods. The dead mind. But the Buddha was not a butterfly collector, he was an observer of nature. He wanted us to watch the flight and flitter of the butterfly, to understand how it behaves in its natural environment, and to follow it gently, delicately, quietly until it settles down to rest and be still according to its nature – which he called ‘samadhi’....

    Just what is going on here? Why postulate such an odd theory, raising so many pseudo-problems, and so contrary to the suttas, to common sense, and to experience? What is occurring, I suggest, is that the domain of discourse has been shifted from the empirical to the metaphysical. The suttas treat time in a straightforward, pragmatic, empirical terms – birth, ageing, and death, the changing states of the mind, the progressive development of spiritual qualities. The purpose, the sole purpose, is to empower the practitioner to get a handle on this stuff of life, directing attention to the seat of the problem – how our attachments cause suffering, and how to find peace by letting go. But the abhidhamma aims to describe, not just the spiritual problem and its solution, but the totality of existence. Inevitably, the subjective stance of the suttas becomes objectified, and as the focus moves from meditation to study, the concepts in the books become imposed on reality; in fact, they become reality itself. The quest for truth becomes a quest for definition, and reality becomes as neatly departmentalized as a mathematical table. ‘Ultimate reality’ becomes, not what you are experiencing now, but what you read about in abhidhamma books.

    Find this hard to swallow? You might be interested to know that in contemporary abhidhamma circles it is, apparently, the orthodox position that the series of ‘mind-moments’ can only be directly seen by Buddhas, and perhaps chief disciples. This is, admittedly, challenged by some, who claim it can be seen in meditation. In just the same way, a Christian meditator will claim to see God, or a Hindu to see the universal Self. Seek and ye shall find. The very fact that such a controversy could possibly arise is a sign how far we have drifted from the Buddha’s pragmatic empiricism. This is bad enough; but even worse when we realize that the theory in question made its appearance a millennium after the Buddha’s time. This, for me, is as good as an admission that the whole thing is mere metaphysical speculation. No wonder the abhidhammikas have been so keen to father the canonical abhidhamma (and sometimes even the commentaries!) on the Buddha himself, despite massive evidence to the contrary.
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: I agree, there is perpetual change. My point was that categorising this transience as rapid rise and fall is potentially misleading.
Potentially misleading, how so?
Just that change takes place over different time-scales and at different levels. A background mood or mind-state tends to change more slowly than say eye-consciousness.
An analogy would be comparing historical to geological time.

Spiny
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:As I understand it (as I've heard it explained by teachers from various Theravada schools), it' is important to be able to see that moods are unstable, otherwise it's very tempting to attach the "self" who is in a "calm meditator mind state".
I agree. Though I also think it's useful to recognise that change takes place over different time-scales, and at different levels.

Spiny
If you look at something that is changing, and by looking I mean with the senses/mind process, so, if you are looking at something that is conditioned such as pain, one can say I am having pain and it is just constant, it has not changed at all. But when you look at it with ever more care, with an concentrated, mindful mind, one might see that the pain is constantly changing, not unlike a fire.

The time scales, it would seem, depend upon how what is looked at is looked at, which is what you might mean here by "levels."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: I agree, there is perpetual change. My point was that categorising this transience as rapid rise and fall is potentially misleading.
Potentially misleading, how so?
Just that change takes place over different time-scales and at different levels. A background mood or mind-state tends to change more slowly than say eye-consciousness.
An analogy would be comparing historical to geological time.

Spiny
Of course, our life span in term of geologic time is but a mere snap of the fingers or less.

I think I understand what you are saying, but the perception of the pace of change changes as we get more aware of the change in terms of concentration and mindfulness -- at least that is what I am saying. Question: are we on the same page here? Or in even in the same chapter?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote: . . .
Thank you for your response. Interesting, but I shan't pursue it further.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Is it just the notion of discreet, momentary dhammas, or is it that and the subtext of this thread of the Burmese vipassana traditions having no real legitimacy? So, it is all untenable?
FTR I have never said nor implied that the Burmese Vipassanā traditions have no legitimacy. I have said:
  • [T]he most important factors for productive progress in meditation are the maintenance of appropriate ethical conduct, being committed to renunciation and a life of voluntary simplicity, engaging in either solitary or group retreats on a fairly regular basis, and being dedicated to sustaining a daily practice schedule. If these conditions are in place (and it can take time to develop these optimal conditions), then whatever method of instruction one relies on, and whatever primary meditation object one engages in, there will be significant progress.

    This whole "samatha vs. vipassanā" debate where some parties are intent upon either tacitly criticizing or overtly attacking the meditation instructions of the Mahāsi Sayādaw tradition and the U Ba Khin tradition as not being the sammāsamādhi of the early teachings, is completely without merit. In both of these traditions the meditation instructions are conjoined samatha & vipassanā methods. Following these instructions can certainly lead to the attainment of the four jhānas as these are described in the canon.
And:
  • "Jhāna" as it occurs in the suttas can refer to either (i) jhāna which scrutinizes an object-support (ārammaṇūpanijjhāna) or (ii) jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna). The former is also called samatha jhāna and the latter is also called vipassanā jhāna. Mahāsi Sayādaw, The Wheel of Dhamma:
    • Jhāna means closely observing an object with fixed attention. Concentrated attention given to a selected object of meditation, such as breathing for tranquility concentration, gives rise to samatha jhāna, whereas noting the characteristic nature of mind and body and contemplating on their impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality brings about vipassanā jhāna.
    Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) occurs during any moment of the development of vipassanā (vipassanābhāvanā), as well as during any path or fruition attainment. As Sayādaw U Pandita explains in In This Very Life: The Vipassanā Jhānas, vipassanā jhāna can occur with the jhāna factors of each of the four jhānas, and therefore fulfill the criteria of the standard jhāna formula.
And:
  • Anyone who denies the efficacy of classical vipassanābhāvanā without rūpāvacarajjhāna and modern Burmese vipassanā jhāna is asserting that they -- and the select few that agree with them -- are right, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is necessarily wrong. This not only represents a dismissive, extreme agenda, the entire premise is nonsensical on the face of it.
And:
  • All of the different common [meditation] instructions will work if applied. The most important point is to sit on your sitting mat or cushion -- regularly and repeatedly -- and apply the instruction that resonates with you.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is it just the notion of discreet, momentary dhammas, or is it that and the subtext of this thread of the Burmese vipassana traditions having no real legitimacy? So, it is all untenable?
FTR I have never said nor implied that the Burmese Vipassanā traditions have no legitimacy. I have said:. . . .
Thank you for the clarification. I find your position(s) in regard to Burmerse vipassana are a bit confusing, and maybe a bit too subtle for me, but thank you again for what you posted.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply