Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
sublime
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by sublime »

Kenshou wrote:What?
It is useless to engage in a discussion going no where. If you believe Buddha, any discussion about views is going no where. Objective truth? Ha! There's only one's personal interpretation of a text here, and how to apply it there. Will there be any measure of regularity of this following upon that? Nope. Not objectively. Purely personal. The illusion of objectivity has become a pernicious disease in Buddhist discourse. What is liberation anyway? It's not a something or a nothing as Wittgenstein said of feelings. You could really clean up Buddhism and do the world a great favor if we just talk about what the Pali words were supposed to mean and whether there's a Maghadi correlate that could clear it up. Then people can stop bitching each other out about what reality really is, like anyone will ever really know. Don't let skeptics bog you down with burdens of proof. Liberation is a know it when you see it affair.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by tiltbillings »

sublime wrote:I'm verklempt. It was not my intention to upset. I could just flog myself, mea culpa mea mulpa mea culpa. Experience. What are we talking about? Mind. It's nothing. It's no body's fault. Honestly, sheesh. We should have a pot luck.
A nechtiker tog!
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Thank you for the clarification.
You're welcome.
tiltbillings wrote:I find your position(s) in regard to Burmerse vipassana are a bit confusing
My concerns pertain to view, specifically (i) privileging the writings of Buddhaghosa, et al, over all earlier Pāli sources to such an extent that the latter can only be understood through the former; and (ii) placing so much emphasis on "attaining" an event called a "path moment" without sufficiently locating this experience within the larger soteriological context.
Clarence
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Clarence »

Ñāṇa wrote: My concerns pertain to view, specifically (i) privileging the writings of Buddhaghosa, et al, over all earlier Pāli sources to such an extent that the latter can only be understood through the former; and (ii) placing so much emphasis on "attaining" an event called a "path moment" without sufficiently locating this experience within the larger soteriological context.
If you could choose only one of any teachers, who would you recommend to study/practice under?
danieLion
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by danieLion »

Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:Re: (i) & (ii). Compare to the four laws of thermodynamics, particularly laws 1 & 3 (a.k.a. entropy) (the "first" law is The Zeroth).
What do the laws of thermodynamics have to do with the mind?
Do you believe the mind is completely independent of thermodynamics?
D :heart:
danieLion
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by danieLion »

Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:Re: (i) & (ii). Compare to the four laws of thermodynamics, particularly laws 1 & 3 (a.k.a. entropy) (the "first" law is The Zeroth).
What do the laws of thermodynamics have to do with the mind?
The mind is a system (a process not a thing) and systems are the subject matter of thermodynamics.
D :heart:
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

Clarence wrote:If you could choose only one of any teachers, who would you recommend to study/practice under?
There are many decent and well-intentioned teachers. I don't know of any one who would stand out as better or more learned or more accomplished than all others.
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

danieLion wrote:The mind is a system (a process not a thing) and systems are the subject matter of thermodynamics.
AFAIK thermodynamics pertains exclusively to physical systems, does it not?
danieLion wrote:Do you believe the mind is completely independent of thermodynamics?
I believe that the laws of thermodynamics have little if any relevance with regard to the four noble truths, the noble eightfold path, and liberation.
dhamma follower
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by dhamma follower »

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I don't buy into this classification of realism...I think it is a product of too much philosophies.
The idea of a determinate reality comprised of discrete momentary dhammas is a product of too much unchecked ideation.
dhamma follower wrote:In a world when everything depends upon each other, one element changes implies change on all the others. That's why I said DO implies in it momentariness.
The alteration of what persists (ṭhitassa aññathatta) doesn't entail a theory of discrete momentary dhammas. Neither does DO.
dhamma follower wrote:When you say consciousness undergoes change and alteration, what does that mean exactly?
It means that the alteration of what persists can be discerned (ṭhitassa aññathatta paññāyati). SN 22.37 Ānanda Sutta:
  • With consciousness an arising is discerned, a falling away is discerned, and an alteration of what persists is discerned.
dhamma follower wrote:When you walk, your step might cover a distance of 30 cm, but 30 cm is made up from very small parts of the motion.
How small are these "very small parts of the motion"?
dhamma follower wrote:Similarly when consciousness is seemingly attentive to one object for a certain time, it is made up from minute moments of conditioning.
How minute are these "minute moments of conditioning"?
You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity. It doesn't have to be and it is certainly not, especially so because momentary rising and falling of dhammas is perceived as a result of perceiving dependent origination.

This discussion gets stuck because we don't seem to talk from the same perspective...

Regards,
dhamma follower
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by dhamma follower »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:For all of that, dhamma-follower still does not by necessity of any argument you have put forth need to buy that label of realism,
If a mind moment can't be objectively established, yet one still insists that there is indeed such a real entity then they are subscribing to a worldview that is based on the notion of truth as constituted by a correspondence between our concepts and statements, on the one hand, and the features of an independent, determinate reality, on the other hand.

[/list]
Who says there is a real entity?
There is nothing esoteric, mysterious, or hidden about impermanence. Later accretions like the theory of momentariness only muddy the waters.
There is nothing esoteric, mysterious, hidden about impermanence, indeed. Yet there are different levels of understanding it: from listening or reading, from reflection and from direct experience. The direct experience of it can happen when we walk, sit, feel, think, listen if sati-sampajana is cultivated sufficiently.... I don't see how the explanation of momentariness makes it muddy, as on the contrary it makes it clearer to understand what is direct insight.

All of this, is of course a domain of personal understanding and is subject to change when our understanding changes. Even the reading of the same sutta is not the same for everyone. Some Venerable say this, others say the opposite, all seem to know so well what they talk about...So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...

Regards,
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

dhamma follower wrote:You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity.
Do you think that discrete momentary dhammas are rising and falling whether we are aware of this or not?
dhamma follower wrote:Who says there is a real entity?
It seems that you do. Real entities = paramattha dhammas subject to momentary origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga), which are objectively established as real (bhāvasiddha). That is, they are not merely nominally designated based on selective recognition (saññā).
dhamma follower wrote:So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...
I prefer to rely on the entire Suttapiṭaka.
danieLion
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by danieLion »

danieLion wrote:The mind is a system (a process not a thing) and systems are the subject matter of thermodynamics.
Ñāṇa wrote:AFAIK thermodynamics pertains exclusively to physical systems, does it not?
That depends on whether or not you consider processes like pressure, volume, temperature, energy, the transfer of heat, radiation, etc..., as strictly physical.

It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon. If I were to investigate, I'd start with the dhatus.
danieLion wrote:Do you believe the mind is completely independent of thermodynamics?
Ñāṇa wrote:I believe that the laws of thermodynamics have little if any relevance with regard to the four noble truths, the noble eightfold path, and liberation.


If the mind is not completely independent of thermodynamic laws, then they have relevance to The Path of Liberation to the extent of the dependency between thermodynamics and The Path.

DanieLion :heart:
dhamma follower
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by dhamma follower »

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity.
Do you think that discrete momentary dhammas are rising and falling whether we are aware of this or not?
dhamma follower wrote:Who says there is a real entity?
It seems that you do. Real entities = paramattha dhammas subject to momentary origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga), which are objectively established as real (bhāvasiddha). That is, they are not merely nominally designated based on selective recognition (saññā).
It depends on what you call "being aware". If it means vinnana, or citta, then no. Dhammas are known only through the co-arising with citta.
If it means sati-sampajana, then yes. The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that, only our faculty to actually have clear seeing and comprehension about is not the same for everyone and at all time.

The problem lies in trying to make a model of reality outside the scope of our observation- it is a kind of grasping. As long as it is understood for what it is, i.e. experiential stages to the extent of removing wrong view about self and permanence and of reducing attachment, the goal is fulfilled. When one goes beyond this implication to attempt to make a model of reality from what it is totally experiential, it becomes unnecessary philosophy- an approach that the Buddha always warned people to avoid.
dhamma follower wrote:So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...
I prefer to rely on the entire Suttapiṭaka.
I suppose that you know I was saying that in the context of your citing of many books, essays etc... Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...

Regards,
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

dhamma follower wrote:The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that....
And what makes you believe that it ever happens like that?
dhamma follower wrote:Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...
There's no reason to believe in discrete momentary dhammas.
Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana »

danieLion wrote:It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon.
I'm not dismissing the laws of thermodynamics as a source of worldly knowledge. I'm suggesting that one doesn't need to know anything about the laws of thermodynamics to practice the path and attain liberation.
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