dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

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dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:29 am

Sometimes I like to translate dukkha as "conflict" and nirodha as "resolution."

Why shouldn't I? Why should I?

or

Where shouldn't I? Where should I?

I prefer to keep it within the suttas, but won't complain if other references our made.

Wishing you all good-will.

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Last edited by danieLion on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:59 pm

danieLion wrote:Sometimes I like to translate dukkha as "conflict" and nirodha as "resolution."


Could you say why?

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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:41 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
danieLion wrote:Sometimes I like to translate dukkha as "conflict" and nirodha as "resolution."


Could you say why?

Spiny

Why not?
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:35 pm

Interesting; I have never seen those terms used before.

Is all dukkha conflict? For example, is child birth a conflict? Many emotional pains could be called conflict, but there are other pains and sufferings that don't appear to have conflict.

Isn't conflict mostly adversarial? Or maybe I'm thinking of Marx when I hear conflict (conflict theory dualism). :thinking:
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:06 pm

IMHO dukkha as 'stress' seems to be a good. Childbirth is stressful , and so are emotional conflicts.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:41 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Interesting; I have never seen those terms used before.

Is all dukkha conflict? For example, is child birth a conflict? Many emotional pains could be called conflict, but there are other pains and sufferings that don't appear to have conflict.

Isn't conflict mostly adversarial? Or maybe I'm thinking of Marx when I hear conflict (conflict theory dualism). :thinking:

Hi Dave,
Always enjoy your perspective. Thanks.

I had the conflict of relationships in mind, but internal conflict works for me too. I don't know if all conflict is dukkha, but all conflict involves dukkha, and perhaps the reverse--all dukkha involves conflict. As a mediator, and in my own life, when we are in conflict, and it gets resolved peacefully and mutually, the transformative power of that process necessarily involves awareness of the cessation of the conflict. It seems like the same thing as attending to cessation to me, but on an interpersonal rather than introspective level.

Alternative Dispute Resolution (a sub-field of conflict resolution) is alternative because it's alternative to traditional adversarial law. There's still an element of adversariality, but it's managed differently--I would say more skillfully. Conflict is pervasive, like dukkha, and when we approach it adversarially, we get unskillful results. But conflict, like dukkha, is to be understood, not avoided. Most conflict escalates because appropriate attention is not present when it spirals out.

I do not generally agree with Marx about conflict. I'm glad he got the ball rolling, but we've come a long way from his influence.
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:42 am

Alex123 wrote:IMHO dukkha as 'stress' seems to be a good. Childbirth is stressful , and so are emotional conflicts.

Most psychologists call this eustress.
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby chownah » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:14 am

It is clear to me that there is a typo in the title for this thread...it should be "Conflict as dukkha, Resolution as nirodha."
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby SilvioB » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:39 am

danieLion wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Is all dukkha conflict? For example, is child birth a conflict? Many emotional pains could be called conflict, but there are other pains and sufferings that don't appear to have conflict.

I don't know if all conflict is dukkha, but all conflict involves dukkha, and perhaps the reverse--all dukkha involves conflict.

Hello Daniel

I am interested in these investigations about suffering. I believe all suffering is conflict. I have experienced physical pain before and found physical pain is only suffering if I do not accept it. If I have resistance to it.

I agree that dukkha is conflict. Child birth is conflict when a woman has resistance & fear to the pain & hardship of child birth.

Ciao

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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:18 am

chownah wrote:It is clear to me that there is a typo in the title for this thread...it should be "Conflict as dukkha, Resolution as nirodha."
chownah

Thanks chownah!
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:30 am

What I've been doing is when I read the word dukkha or its English variants, and when I read the word nirodha or it English variants, I substitute "conflict" for "dukkha" and "resolution" for "nirodha". Sometimes it feels right, other times, not. Try it, e.g., with the Buddha's "first sermon" (Turning The Wheel of Dhamma).

My hunch is that dukkha as conflict/conflict as dukkha is more salient when the stress/suffering is part of a relationship with another person. In other words, the kind of dukkha we experience in relationships (as opposed to internal conflict) is best understood as conflict.

If you look at the "twelfth link" of dependent origination, for example, you get a flavor of the different manifestations of dukkha, and it is by no means exhaustive. And in general, dependent origination explicates the conflictual aspects of dukkha.
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby SilvioB » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:18 pm

danieLion wrote:If you look at the "twelfth link" of dependent origination, for example, you get a flavor of the different manifestations of dukkha, and it is by no means exhaustive. And in general, dependent origination explicates the conflictual aspects of dukkha.

Hello Daniel

I enter 'dependent origination' in Google Search and find the easy to understand explanation in the 3rd of the list. It is of Christina Feldman, she say:

Birth is followed by death in which there is the sense of loss, change, the passing away of that state of experience. "I used to be happy;" "I used to be successful;" "I was content in the last moment," and so on. The passing away of that state of experience, the feeling of being deprived or separated from the identity, "I used to be…" is the moment of death. In that moment of death, we sense a loss of good meditation experience, the good emotional experience. We say it’s gone. And associated with that sense is the pain and the grief, the despair of our loss.

http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/1999a/christina.htm

I think the explanation of Christina show that dukkha is conflict. Dukkha is conflict when not accepting change. Dukkha is fighting & resisting change.

Ciao

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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:33 am

SilvioB wrote:Dukkha is conflict when not accepting change. Dukkha is fighting & resisting change.

Indeed. But there also skillful ways of pro-actively dealing with change, especially when "we are seeing things as the really are."
Daniel :heart:
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:44 pm

I think if one is not attached to conflict then one does not experience dukkha thereby.
I think if one is attached to resolution then one does expereince dukkha thereby.
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:08 pm

SilvioB wrote: Dukkha is fighting & resisting change.


That's a good way of putting it, and the Buddha did say that whatever is impermanent is unsatisfactory.

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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:12 am

chownah wrote:I think if one is not attached to conflict then one does not experience dukkha thereby.
I think if one is attached to resolution then one does expereince dukkha thereby.
chownah

Hi chownah,
Why separate dukkha from conflict experientially? Is not the experience of conflict stressful? Is not the experience of the resolution of conflict liberating?

By "attachment" do you mean upadana?

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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:15 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
SilvioB wrote: Dukkha is fighting & resisting change.


That's a good way of putting it, and the Buddha did say that whatever is impermanent is unsatisfactory.

Spiny

Fighting fair is a skillful use of anicca properly understood.
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:31 am

danieLion wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
SilvioB wrote: Dukkha is fighting & resisting change.


That's a good way of putting it, and the Buddha did say that whatever is impermanent is unsatisfactory.

Spiny

Fighting fair is a skillful use of anicca properly understood.
D :heart:


Do you mean working with change? Could you maybe give some examples?

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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby chownah » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:36 pm

danieLion wrote:
chownah wrote:I think if one is not attached to conflict then one does not experience dukkha thereby.
I think if one is attached to resolution then one does expereince dukkha thereby.
chownah

Hi chownah,
Why separate dukkha from conflict experientially? Is not the experience of conflict stressful? Is not the experience of the resolution of conflict liberating?

By "attachment" do you mean upadana?

D :heart:

danieLion,
Just as a hint of a reply.....just the tip of the iceburg of a reply is that conflict is fun!!!!....after all that is why you responded to my post!!!!.....I guess.....but I don't know for sure.....maybe I'm wrong.....that's why people enjoy sports!!!!....I guess.....but I don't know for sure....that's why people like to get married!!!....I guess....but I don't know for sure.....that's why Steve Job's enjoyed being the CEO of Apple....I guess....but I don't know for sure.....
chownah
P.S. Upadana? No speeka da Pali.
chownah
P.P.S. Is there any connection between Dukkha and attachment? (Yes, this is a pun but it is also a serious question.)
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Re: dukkha as Conflict, nirodha as Resolution

Postby danieLion » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:58 am

danieLion wrote:Fighting fair is a skillful use of anicca properly understood.


Spiny O'Norman wrote: Do you mean working with change? Could you maybe give some examples?

Hey Bristly,
Resisting change is futile. Better to work with it.
Fight fair/working with change examples: Robert's Rules of Order, consensus (discourse ethics), the legal system, mediation, arbitration, contracts, agreeing to refrain from things like name-calling and ad hominem attacks, vipassana, anapanasati, bramavihara contemplation, sila, being nice, friendly, affectionate, etc....

Add some more of your own.
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