Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:12 pm

dhamma follower wrote:You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity.

Do you think that discrete momentary dhammas are rising and falling whether we are aware of this or not?

dhamma follower wrote:Who says there is a real entity?

It seems that you do. Real entities = paramattha dhammas subject to momentary origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga), which are objectively established as real (bhāvasiddha). That is, they are not merely nominally designated based on selective recognition (saññā).

dhamma follower wrote:So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...

I prefer to rely on the entire Suttapiṭaka.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby danieLion » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:49 am

danieLion wrote:The mind is a system (a process not a thing) and systems are the subject matter of thermodynamics.

Ñāṇa wrote:AFAIK thermodynamics pertains exclusively to physical systems, does it not?

That depends on whether or not you consider processes like pressure, volume, temperature, energy, the transfer of heat, radiation, etc..., as strictly physical.

It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon. If I were to investigate, I'd start with the dhatus.

danieLion wrote:Do you believe the mind is completely independent of thermodynamics?

Ñāṇa wrote:I believe that the laws of thermodynamics have little if any relevance with regard to the four noble truths, the noble eightfold path, and liberation.


If the mind is not completely independent of thermodynamic laws, then they have relevance to The Path of Liberation to the extent of the dependency between thermodynamics and The Path.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby dhamma follower » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:57 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity.

Do you think that discrete momentary dhammas are rising and falling whether we are aware of this or not?

dhamma follower wrote:Who says there is a real entity?

It seems that you do. Real entities = paramattha dhammas subject to momentary origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga), which are objectively established as real (bhāvasiddha). That is, they are not merely nominally designated based on selective recognition (saññā).



It depends on what you call "being aware". If it means vinnana, or citta, then no. Dhammas are known only through the co-arising with citta.
If it means sati-sampajana, then yes. The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that, only our faculty to actually have clear seeing and comprehension about is not the same for everyone and at all time.

The problem lies in trying to make a model of reality outside the scope of our observation- it is a kind of grasping. As long as it is understood for what it is, i.e. experiential stages to the extent of removing wrong view about self and permanence and of reducing attachment, the goal is fulfilled. When one goes beyond this implication to attempt to make a model of reality from what it is totally experiential, it becomes unnecessary philosophy- an approach that the Buddha always warned people to avoid.

dhamma follower wrote:So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...

I prefer to rely on the entire Suttapiṭaka.


I suppose that you know I was saying that in the context of your citing of many books, essays etc... Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:31 am

dhamma follower wrote:The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that....

And what makes you believe that it ever happens like that?

dhamma follower wrote:Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...

There's no reason to believe in discrete momentary dhammas.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:35 am

danieLion wrote:It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon.

I'm not dismissing the laws of thermodynamics as a source of worldly knowledge. I'm suggesting that one doesn't need to know anything about the laws of thermodynamics to practice the path and attain liberation.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby dhamma follower » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:35 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that....

And what makes you believe that it ever happens like that?



One moment of directly understand the dependently co- arising of dhammas makes one understand that all dhammas work that way, It is the same for rising falling. No one questions about dependent origination, right?

When you start to perceive rising and falling in what you have previously perceived as a "static whole", you understand that it is moha that has covered that truth. I think it is the nature of panna to understand like that.

Even on an intellectual level, once one has understood about change, one understands that change is inherent in every composed thing...

dhamma follower wrote:Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...

There's no reason to believe in discrete momentary dhammas


As well as believing in the rejection of it.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:23 pm

dhamma follower wrote:When you start to perceive rising and falling in what you have previously perceived as a "static whole", you understand that it is moha that has covered that truth.

And for the reasons already provided, this insight has nothing to do with perceiving discrete momentary dhammas.

Nevertheless, if you think the idea of momentariness is a useful representation of your own experiential cognitive processes, then it can be useful to that extent. But this doesn't mean that it isn't a conceptual interpretation of what you are experiencing.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:43 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon.

I'm not dismissing the laws of thermodynamics as a source of worldly knowledge. I'm suggesting that one doesn't need to know anything about the laws of thermodynamics to practice the path and attain liberation.

Fair enough.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:40 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is it just the notion of discreet, momentary dhammas, or is it that and the subtext of this thread of the Burmese vipassana traditions having no real legitimacy? So, it is all untenable?

FTR I have never said nor implied that the Burmese Vipassanā traditions have no legitimacy. I have said:

    [T]he most important factors for productive progress in meditation are the maintenance of appropriate ethical conduct, being committed to renunciation and a life of voluntary simplicity, engaging in either solitary or group retreats on a fairly regular basis, and being dedicated to sustaining a daily practice schedule. If these conditions are in place (and it can take time to develop these optimal conditions), then whatever method of instruction one relies on, and whatever primary meditation object one engages in, there will be significant progress.

    This whole "samatha vs. vipassanā" debate where some parties are intent upon either tacitly criticizing or overtly attacking the meditation instructions of the Mahāsi Sayādaw tradition and the U Ba Khin tradition as not being the sammāsamādhi of the early teachings, is completely without merit. In both of these traditions the meditation instructions are conjoined samatha & vipassanā methods. Following these instructions can certainly lead to the attainment of the four jhānas as these are described in the canon.

And:

    "Jhāna" as it occurs in the suttas can refer to either (i) jhāna which scrutinizes an object-support (ārammaṇūpanijjhāna) or (ii) jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna). The former is also called samatha jhāna and the latter is also called vipassanā jhāna. Mahāsi Sayādaw, The Wheel of Dhamma:

      Jhāna means closely observing an object with fixed attention. Concentrated attention given to a selected object of meditation, such as breathing for tranquility concentration, gives rise to samatha jhāna, whereas noting the characteristic nature of mind and body and contemplating on their impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality brings about vipassanā jhāna.

    Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) occurs during any moment of the development of vipassanā (vipassanābhāvanā), as well as during any path or fruition attainment. As Sayādaw U Pandita explains in In This Very Life: The Vipassanā Jhānas, vipassanā jhāna can occur with the jhāna factors of each of the four jhānas, and therefore fulfill the criteria of the standard jhāna formula.

And:

    Anyone who denies the efficacy of classical vipassanābhāvanā without rūpāvacarajjhāna and modern Burmese vipassanā jhāna is asserting that they -- and the select few that agree with them -- are right, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is necessarily wrong. This not only represents a dismissive, extreme agenda, the entire premise is nonsensical on the face of it.

And:

    All of the different common [meditation] instructions will work if applied. The most important point is to sit on your sitting mat or cushion -- regularly and repeatedly -- and apply the instruction that resonates with you.


Hi Nana,

Excuse my ignorance, but I understand that the Burmese vipassana traditions hold to the view of momentariness and use it in their understanding and development of the path. Would this indicate that a wrong view as a starting point has been taken, if momentariness is a nonsense.

Metta

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:25 am

Brizzy wrote:I understand that the Burmese vipassana traditions hold to the view of momentariness and use it in their understanding and development of the path. Would this indicate that a wrong view as a starting point has been taken, if momentariness is a nonsense.

It seems to me that one could follow the basic meditation instructions of Mahāsi Sayādaw or U Ba Khin, etc., without subscribing to the view of momentariness. But this probably isn't possible once one gets into the subsequent stages of insight knowledge.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:55 am

Ñāṇa wrote:It seems to me that one could follow the basic meditation instructions of Mahāsi Sayādaw or U Ba Khin, etc., without subscribing to the view of momentariness. But this probably isn't possible once one gets into the subsequent stages of insight knowledge.


If we examine what Mahasi Sayadaw says in "The Progress of Insight" http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html it doesn't seem to depend much on believing that things are "momentary", simply that the perceived rise and fall of objects becomes rapid:

Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:3. Knowledge of Comprehension http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... prehension

When this "purification (of insight) by overcoming doubt" has reached maturity, the meditator will discern distinctly the initial, middle, and final phases of any object noticed by him. Then, in the case of various objects noticed, he will discern distinctly that only after each earlier process has ceased, does there arise a subsequent process. For instance, only when the rising movement of the abdomen has come to an end, does there arise the falling movement; only when that has ended, is there again a rising movement. So also in the case of walking: only when the lifting of the foot has come to an end, does there arise the carrying forward of the foot; only when that has been completed, does there follow the placing of the foot on the ground.
...


And that there is a stage where only the passing away is seen and the meditator can think that s/he has lost the plot...

Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:5. Knowledge of Dissolution http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... issolution

Noticing the bodily and mental processes as they arise, he sees them part by part, link by link, piece by piece, fraction by fraction: "Just now it arises, just now it dissolves." When that knowledge of arising and passing away becomes mature, keen and strong, it will arise easily and proceed uninterruptedly as if borne onward of itself; also the bodily and mental processes will be easily discernible. When keen knowledge thus carries on and formations are easily discernible, then neither the arising of each bodily and mental process, nor its middle phase called "presence," nor the continuity of bodily and mental processes called "occurrence as unbroken flux" is apparent to him; nor are the shape of the hand, the foot, the face, the body, and so on, apparent to him. But what is apparent to him is only the ceasing of bodily and mental processes, called "vanishing," or "passing away," or "dissolution."

For instance, while noticing the rising movement of the abdomen, neither its initial nor middle phase is apparent, but only the ceasing or vanishing, which is called the final phase, is apparent; and so it is also with the falling movement of the abdomen. Again, in the case of bending an arm or leg, while noticing the act of bending, neither the initial nor the middle phase of bending is apparent, nor is the form of the limb apparent, but only the final phase of ceasing and vanishing is apparent. It is similar in the other cases of stretching a limb, and so on.

For at that time each object that is being noticed seems to him to be entirely absent or to have become non-existent. Consequently, at this stage of knowledge, it seems to him as if he were engaged in noticing something which has already become absent or non-existent by having vanished; and the consciousness engaged in noticing appears to have lost contact with the object that is being noticed. It is for that reason that a meditator may here think: "I have lost the insight"; but he should not think so.


It's not obvious to me that what is described here requires phenomena to be "momentary" in the later commentarial sense. And observation of arising and passing away of phenomena is certainly discussed in the Suttas:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Ven. Anuruddha:]
You fool, don't you know the arahants' maxim?

'How inconstant are compounded things!
Their nature: to arise & pass away.
They disband as they are arising.
Their total stilling is bliss.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


:anjali:
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:03 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Brizzy wrote:I understand that the Burmese vipassana traditions hold to the view of momentariness and use it in their understanding and development of the path. Would this indicate that a wrong view as a starting point has been taken, if momentariness is a nonsense.

It seems to me that one could follow the basic meditation instructions of Mahāsi Sayādaw or U Ba Khin, etc., without subscribing to the view of momentariness. But this probably isn't possible once one gets into the subsequent stages of insight knowledge.


Yes, well, that would have to assume that momentariness is nonsense, a position seemingly argued for here, but not definitively demonstrated, and that a hard core adoptation of momentariness is part of the all the Burmese vipassana traditions. Mike makes a good point above.

I am curious, in this light, if Ven Ñanananda, whose meditation practices and what he teaches is derived from Mahasi Sayadaw, holds a hard core "momentary" point of view, in your opinion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, well, that would have to assume that momentariness is nonsense, a position seemingly argued for here, but not definitively demonstrated

Which is it? Is momentariness veridical or is it meaningless as you stated here:

tiltbillings wrote:Also, it is not a billion of mind moments in an eye blink; it billions. In other words it is a meaningless number.


tiltbillings wrote:I am curious, in this light, if Ven Ñanananda, whose meditation practices and what he teaches is derived from Mahasi Sayadaw, holds a hard core "momentary" point of view, in your opinion.

He's less than clear on this point.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:03 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes, well, that would have to assume that momentariness is nonsense, a position seemingly argued for here, but not definitively demonstrated

Which is it? Is momentariness veridical or is it meaningless as you stated here:

tiltbillings wrote:Also, it is not a billion of mind moments in an eye blink; it billions. In other words it is a meaningless number.
My goodness, we are digging through old stuff to impeach what I say, so it seems. The fact that Indians loved impossible numbers to make a point does not argue against the fact remarkably rapid change can, for one with a concentrated and mindful mind, be seen.

tiltbillings wrote:I am curious, in this light, if Ven Ñanananda, whose meditation practices and what he teaches is derived from Mahasi Sayadaw, holds a hard core "momentary" point of view, in your opinion.

He's less than clear on this point.
The fact that a scholar of his high level has over a long period of time found that practice of value says something a bit more significant than reading von Rospatt.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 am

mikenz66 wrote:It's not obvious to me that what is described here requires phenomena to be "momentary" in the later commentarial sense.

So you think that this system based on the Visuddhimagga and post-Visuddhimagga commentaries does not accord with the doctrine of momentariness?

mikenz66 wrote:And observation of arising and passing away of phenomena is certainly discussed in the Suttas:

The contemplation of rise and fall (udayabbayānupassinā) as it's taught in the suttas pertains to understanding specific conditionality (idappaccayatā). For example, SN 22.57 Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta:

    With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of form. With the cessation of nutriment there is the cessation of form. And this noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of form....

    With the arising of name-and-form there is the arising of consciousness. With the cessation of name-and-form there is the cessation of consciousness. And this noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness.

And SN 22.5 Samādhi Sutta:

    And what, monks, is the origin of form? What is the origin of feeling? What is the origin of recognition? What is the origin of fabrications? What is the origin of consciousness? Here monks, a monk seeks delight, welcomes, remains attached.

    And what does one seek delight in, welcome, and remain attached to? One seeks delight in form, welcomes it, and remains attached to it. Due to seeking delight in form, welcoming it, and remaining attached to it, delight arises. Delight in form is clinging. With clinging as a condition, existence; with existence as a condition, birth; with birth as a condition, aging and death, sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.

    One seeks delight in feeling, welcomes it, and remains attached to it... One seeks delight in recognition, welcomes it, and remains attached to it... One seeks delight in fabrications, welcomes them, and remains attached to them... One seeks delight in consciousness, welcomes it, and remains attached to it. Due to seeking delight in consciousness, welcoming it, and remaining attached to it, delight arises. Delight in consciousness is clinging. With clinging as a condition, existence; with existence as a condition, birth; with birth as a condition, aging and death, sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.

    This, monks, is the origin of form, this is the origin of feeling, this is the origin of recognition, this is the origin of fabrications, this is the origin of consciousness.

    And what, monks, is the passing away of form? What is the passing away of feeling? What is the passing away of recognition? What is the passing away of fabrications? What is the passing away of consciousness? Here monks, a monk does not seek delight, does not welcome, does not remain attached.

    And what does one not seek delight in, not welcome, and not remain attached to? One does not seek delight in form, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it. Due to not seeking delight in form, not welcoming it, and not remaining attached to it, delight in form ceases. With the cessation of delight, the cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, the cessation of existence... Such is the cessation of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.

    One does not seek delight in feeling, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it... One does not seek delight in recognition, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it... One does not seek delight in fabrications, does not welcome them, and does not remain attached to them... One does not seek delight in consciousness, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it. Due to not seeking delight in consciousness, not welcoming it, and not remaining attached to it, delight in consciousness ceases. With the cessation of delight, the cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, the cessation of existence... Such is the cessation of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.

    This, monks, is the passing away of form, this is the passing away of feeling, this is the passing away of recognition, this is the passing away of fabrications, this is the passing away of consciousness.

There's no need for a pseudo-impermanence doctrine of momentariness nor the Visuddhimagga presentation of insight-knowledges.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:The fact that Indians loved impossible numbers to make a point does not argue against the fact remarkably rapid change can, for one with a concentrated and mindful mind, be seen.

Change is not the same as discrete dhammas subject to momentary arising, subsistence, and dissolution.

tiltbillings wrote:The fact that a scholar of his high level has over a long period of time found that practice of value says something a bit more significant than reading von Rospatt.

I'd suggest that it's far better to base one's practice on what is taught in the suttas.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:20 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:And observation of arising and passing away of phenomena is certainly discussed in the Suttas:

The contemplation of rise and fall (udayabbayānupassinā) as it's taught in the suttas pertains to understanding specific conditionality (idappaccayatā). For example, SN 22.57 Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta:

    With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of form. With the cessation of nutriment there is the cessation of form. And this noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of form....

    With the arising of name-and-form there is the arising of consciousness. With the cessation of name-and-form there is the cessation of consciousness. And this noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness.
Fortunately the Anuruddha Sutta does not seem to be making that distinction. It is a bit more inclusive:

    You fool, don't you know the arahants' maxim?

    'How inconstant are compounded things!
    Their nature: to arise & pass away.
    They disband as they are arising.
    Their total stilling is bliss.'
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:33 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:It's not obvious to me that what is described here requires phenomena to be "momentary" in the later commentarial sense.

So you think that this system based on the Visuddhimagga and post-Visuddhimagga commentaries does not accord with the doctrine of momentariness?

Well, don't forget that Mahasi Sayadaw was criticised for not being in line with the Visuddhimagga and the Commentaries, so he was hardly a die-hard traditionalist. In any case, from my reading of the later chapters of the Visuddhimagga and the work of Mahasi Sayadaw and others I really don't see anywhere where it actually makes any difference whether things are "momentary" or just "relatively fast".

Perhaps you could explain what difference it would make in how one would practice? Which, after all, is what the VM and the Suttas are about, aren't they?

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:39 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The fact that Indians loved impossible numbers to make a point does not argue against the fact remarkably rapid change can, for one with a concentrated and mindful mind, be seen.

Change is not the same as discrete dhammas subject to momentary arising, subsistence, and dissolution.
So you claim, but have not shown. As for discrete dhammas, I cannot get too terribly excited about them one way or another, but I do find the idea of them interesting when considered in this light:

    But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident” (Vism-mhþ 824). PoP pg 668.

As for the supposed "subsistence," like the supposed "duration" talked about in the suttas, it is all a matter of causes and conditions.

Mostly, I would say that the "disctete dhamma" business centers around the limitations of our physical perceptual apparatus when pushed to its limits. One gets into problems in taking these literally, but even when that mistake is made, it does not negate the truth of

    "Of all those things that from a cause arise,
    Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
    And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
    This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."
    -- Cunda Sutta

tiltbillings wrote:The fact that a scholar of his high level has over a long period of time found that practice of value says something a bit more significant than reading von Rospatt.

I'd suggest that it's far better to base one's practice on what is taught in the suttas.
The mindfulness practice that Ven Nanananda does and teaches is certainly not out of accords with the suttas. Anyway, whose interpretation of the suttas? Yours?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:Fortunately the Anuruddha Sutta does not seem to be making that distinction.

Ven. Bodhi's translation is better. Moreover, if you consider the context of the sutta it has nothing to do with a theory of momentariness. It's a criticism of devas and deva realms.
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