Unbreakable precepts?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Goofaholix
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Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Post by Goofaholix »

rowyourboat wrote:The above sutta (new on accesstoinsight!) clearly shows that complete in training refers to the 'training rules basic to the holy life'. Now if someone could specify what those are, it would be really helpful.
The passage you quoted is clear, it's referring to the monks 227 training rules (or presumably only 150 at the time of writing).
rowyourboat wrote: Incidentally I don't see precepts as training wheels - that would be a good way to fool ourselves of this advanced practice IMO. The gradual path gets deeper and deeper at each turning of the wheel, unless you are content to swim forever in the shallows.
What's the difference between training rules and training wheels? it's the same concept.

The point is that once you've integrated the dhamma and morality consulting the rulebook each time a difficult situation arises shouldn't be necessary, and silly notions about sacrificing your life rather than finding an appropriate solution arising out of wisdom to a specific problem seems a tad unecessary.
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“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Goof,

Thanks for that. I wonder how the major training rules apply to lay people- at least what is in the noble eightfold path (or the five precepts, the very least) I would have guessed.

'Training rules' is I think an unfortunate choice of words. 'Sikkha' means discipline or field of activity/mastery. The discipline or training in virtue/precepts (sila-sikkha) has been poorly translated to mean 'training rules' which sounds like scafolding around the main structure, or as you say 'training wheels'. But it refers to an entire field of practice around which we must be trained in, until stream entry.

The three trainings:
"There are these three trainings. Which three? ...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... #trainings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also 4/8ths (or half) of the Noble eightfold path is about Sila/precepts. So it would be a big mistake to disregard this very interesting and challenging piece of work. The fact that it might not come naturally is simple- when we go along with our sublte cravings and habits our speech and action may 'seem to flow' easily but nevertheless be defiled. This is not in line with what the Buddha taught (not that i wish to argue that point). The dhamma is not about what is easy, seems intuitive or what we believe to be correct- it is what the Buddha said it is- and we need to figure out what he said, like it or not- less we believe that we know better than an enlightened being.

with metta

Matheesha
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Goofaholix
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Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Post by Goofaholix »

rowyourboat wrote:'Training rules' is I think an unfortunate choice of words. 'Sikkha' means discipline or field of activity/mastery. The discipline or training in virtue/precepts (sila-sikkha) has been poorly translated to mean 'training rules' which sounds like scafolding around the main structure, or as you say 'training wheels'. But it refers to an entire field of practice around which we must be trained in, until stream entry.
I guess Training wheels does sound a bit flippant, the intention though is not to belittle the precepts but to point out that they are not just a morality enforced from outside but a guide to help a morality to develop from inside.

If your translation of the word is correct then training rules/wheels closer to the real meaning than "commandments" which is how a lot of people seem to interpret the precepts and seems to arise out of silabbata paramasa.

If discipline is the word then "code of discipline" is probably much better. Or to use a more modern term "code of conduct". If you value your career then you will want your employer to regard you as someone of integrity, and so you follow the "code of conduct", however no employee would sacrifice their life to uphold the "code of conduct".
rowyourboat wrote:Also 4/8ths (or half) of the Noble eightfold path is about Sila/precepts. So it would be a big mistake to disregard this very interesting and challenging piece of work. The fact that it might not come naturally is simple- when we go along with our sublte cravings and habits our speech and action may 'seem to flow' easily but nevertheless be defiled. This is not in line with what the Buddha taught (not that i wish to argue that point). The dhamma is not about what is easy, seems intuitive or what we believe to be correct- it is what the Buddha said it is- and we need to figure out what he said, like it or not- less we believe that we know better than an enlightened being.
Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort To frame it in terms of your OP if the Buddha didn't say we should die rather than break the precepts then surely suggesting we should get to that point is " believing that we know better than an enlightened being" is it not.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
rowyourboat
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Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Goof,

'Death before breaking the precepts' does sound harsh. It is not in the suttas but in the commentaries as far as I know (regarding stream entrants). Sam talked of suicide- the Buddha said suicide could not be allowed until enlightenment. So I think dying (to keep the precepts) would be a step too far. Far better to stay alive, break a precept and continue to practice until enlightenment in this human life when opportunity has arisen to practice the dhamma. In the Rathavinita sutta Ven.Sariputta asks Ven Cunda the purpose of ordination. He gives an explanation suggesting that even precepts needs letting go of for the sake of nibbana (the latter being the only purpose of ordination).

Then dying to 'keep' precepts would be a better description of an arahanth in my humble opinion. There was one story of a man trying to seduce an enlightened nun by singing the praises of her beautiful eyes (third precept issue). She hands her eyes to him - literally! I guess life means very little to a fully enlightened being and it is impossible for them to break precepts.

Yes, 'code of conduct' would be the best fit. Thank you for that

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Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Post by Goofaholix »

rowyourboat wrote:'Death before breaking the precepts' does sound harsh. It is not in the suttas but in the commentaries as far as I know (regarding stream entrants). Sam talked of suicide- the Buddha said suicide could not be allowed until enlightenment. So I think dying (to keep the precepts) would be a step too far. Far better to stay alive, break a precept and continue to practice until enlightenment in this human life when opportunity has arisen to practice the dhamma.
So why ask the question "How do you get to a place where you won't break precepts even upon the threat of death?' as if it were a desirable thing?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
rowyourboat
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Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Post by rowyourboat »

The person who asked that question is no more. :). Interaction with kalyanamittas have lead to the arising of a new person, based on cause and effect.

I will finish with this:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"

"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."

"And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?"

"Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?"

"Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?"

"Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?"

"Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?"

"Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?"

"Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually are? What is its reward?"

"Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?"

"Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?"

"Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.

"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship."

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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