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True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts? - Dhamma Wheel

True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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faraway
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True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby faraway » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:18 am


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:13 am

Is Ajahn Thanissaro's translation incorrect speech? In my opinion it is a bad translation of musāvāda, which means telling lies, not merely saying something that is incorrect. Speaking falsehood, believe it to be true, but not intending to deceive is not telling lies. It may be incorrect and false, but its not musāvāda.

The five precepts are a pragmatic standard for lay people to follow. At the very least, they should abstain from telling deliberate lies, when asked about the truth of some matter. However, undertaking and observing the five precepts is just the basics, it is not yet enough to develop the Noble Eightfold Path in full.

From the description of Right Speech as a path factor, it is clear that gossip, back-biting, or slander, abusive speech, and idle chatter such as telling jokes and shaggy-dog stories are wrong speech. These three are also included in the ten kinds of immoral deeds (dasākuslakammapaṭhā), kammas leading to rebirths in the four lower realms. so a devout Buddhist should certainly abstain from these too. It is expressly proscribed when undertaking the
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:48 am

Bhante,

Thank you for your post. Do you have the Pāli text of the ājīvatthamaka sīla? I would like to begin using it instead of the panca sīla everyday.

Best,

KB
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:27 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:18 pm

Sadhu, sadu anumodami Bhante! Thank you!
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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faraway
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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby faraway » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:39 am

Thank you Bhante for your explanation and sharing :anjali:

About another Eight Precepts (ājīvatthamaka sīla), this is a new thing for me. Is this precepts really said and expounded by Buddha himself?

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:26 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Ytrog » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:47 pm


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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:02 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Ytrog » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:33 am


UncleMonkey
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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby UncleMonkey » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:43 pm

I have wondered about this, too. Some of my teachers have explicitly said musavada includes all sorts of non-constructive speech, and others have simply said it means lying. The Pali Text Society's online dictionary at translates mus as "to betray, beguile, bewilder, dazzle," so one might interpret musavada as whatever speech leads to a wrong understanding. That could well include gossip, boasting, tale-bearing and a lot of other forms of speech that are not precisely lies, but leave the listener less able to deal constructively with events.

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby dagon » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:12 pm


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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby DGDC » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:49 pm

Five Precepts for householder's is a Theravada construction.

The Lord's word on Musavada is:

Musāvādaṃ pahāya musāvādā paṭivirato hoti saccavādī saccasandho theto paccayiko avisaṃvādako lokassa.

This is for direct disciples of the Lord. What is means is that one's speech should be confined to 'the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth'.

In simpler terms, one should not lie, cause another one to lie, or approve of lying. Impossible for anyone who is living in society. That is why the Lord did not promulgate any training rules for the laity.

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Cormac Brown » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:32 pm

“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby DGDC » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:31 am

Four Ariyasaccas (pronounced ariyasaccāni).
The Ariyasaccas were proclaimed to the world by Lord Buddha (buddho bhagavā). The proclamation is recorded in two places in the Dhamma and Vinaya
I agree that this is a Theravada board. Theravada is the Pali Canon.
I like to be educated. Please give me the relevant references to the Pali canon, regarding training rules for the laity.
I do not express views. I quote the words of Lord Buddha.
I do not accept your advice. It is returned herewith. Please accept.
With friendly thoughts.
DGDC

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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:58 am


Cormac Brown
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Re: True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

Postby Cormac Brown » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:52 pm

“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro


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