True meaning of Musavada in Five Precepts?

[faraway]

Hi,

I'm a little confused about "Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami" part in Five Precepts.

From Access To Insight:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/pancasila.html

4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.

I thought Musavada literally means lying. Why is it changed to incorrect speech?

If you click the incorrect speech's link, it will open to Right Speech (samma vaca) page. If you read on, the definition of Right Speech is: Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. So Musavada-veramani (abstaining from lying) is part of samma vaca (right speech), but literally musavada-veramani is not same as samma vaca, right?

So, based on the pali words meaning, if someone want to observe Five Precepts, does he/she should refrain from lying only or all incorrect speech?

I hope someone can clarify.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Is Ajahn Thanissaro's translation incorrect speech? In my opinion it is a bad translation of musāvāda, which means telling lies, not merely saying something that is incorrect. Speaking falsehood, believe it to be true, but not intending to deceive is not telling lies. It may be incorrect and false, but its not musāvāda.

The five precepts are a pragmatic standard for lay people to follow. At the very least, they should abstain from telling deliberate lies, when asked about the truth of some matter. However, undertaking and observing the five precepts is just the basics, it is not yet enough to develop the Noble Eightfold Path in full.

From the description of Right Speech as a path factor, it is clear that gossip, back-biting, or slander, abusive speech, and idle chatter such as telling jokes and shaggy-dog stories are wrong speech. These three are also included in the ten kinds of immoral deeds (dasākuslakammapaṭhā), kammas leading to rebirths in the four lower realms. so a devout Buddhist should certainly abstain from these too. It is expressly proscribed when undertaking the eight precepts with right livelihood as the eighth.

[Khalil Bodhi]

Bhante,

Thank you for your post. Do you have the Pāli text of the ājīvatthamaka sīla? I would like to begin using it instead of the panca sīla everyday.

Best,

KB

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

The development and use of the Eight Precepts for lay practitioners, Upāsakas and Upāsikās in Theravāda Buddhism in the West
Jacquetta Gomes
Buddhist Group of Kendal (Theravāda), UK

1. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
2. Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
3. Kāmesu micchācārā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
4. Musāvādā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
5. Pisuṇā vācā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
6. Pharusā vācā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
7. Samphappalāpā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
8. Micchājivā veramaṇī sikkāpadaṃ samādiyāmi

1. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from killing living beings
2. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from taking what is not given
3. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from sexual misconduct
4. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from false speech
5. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from backbiting
6. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from using harsh or abusive
   speech
7. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from useless or meaningless
   conversation
8. I undertake the rule of training to refrain from wrong means of liveli-
   hood

[Khalil Bodhi]

Sadhu, sadu anumodami Bhante! Thank you!

[faraway]

Thank you Bhante for your explanation and sharing

About another Eight Precepts (ājīvatthamaka sīla), this is a new thing for me. Is this precepts really said and expounded by Buddha himself?

[Cittasanto]

Thank you Bhante for your explanation and sharing

About another Eight Precepts (ājīvatthamaka sīla), this is a new thing for me. Is this precepts really said and expounded by Buddha himself?

I had read a document in-which one of the kendal group puts forth support for this form of the precepts! I do not have the title on hand but maybe their website has a pdf of it (see link in bhantes above post).

from memory it is supported more directly within the path of purification (have a look at the on-line version found on access to insight in the virtue section) but I do not believe it was directly expounded by the buddha although certainly would not of been objected to as a method and in some ways was a suggestion as the three trainings of the eightfold noble path has sila which is (as far as I am aware) is fully present within this form of the eightfold path!

I have also read some suggest that there is another form of the ten precepts, more commonly known as the ten courses of wholesome action.

neither of there are a direct kind of precept for lay people but they are in keeping with the buddhas path of Dhammavinaya!

something I am certainly not great at following.

[Ytrog]

something I am certainly not great at following.

what makes you say that?

I must say that right speech is a very difficult thing. I often have the tendency to chat when people are around.

[Cittasanto]

something I am certainly not great at following.

what makes you say that?

I must say that right speech is a very difficult thing. I often have the tendency to chat when people are around.

The fourth precept
it is true My Sila has not been close to standard, and I see no point making a post on a thread where sila is at discussion without being honest, for me at the moment this is far more a mental concept than a living aspect of life!

[Ytrog]

something I am certainly not great at following.

what makes you say that?

I must say that right speech is a very difficult thing. I often have the tendency to chat when people are around.

The fourth precept
it is true My Sila has not been close to standard, and I see no point making a post on a thread where sila is at discussion without being honest, for me at the moment this is far more a mental concept than a living aspect of life!

At least you are working on it. That's a lot more than most people in the world can say.