the great 32 Marks of a Great Man thread

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ben
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Ben »

Fede wrote:The cheek of the woman.....
Indeed!
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:
It's perhaps of not much relevance in and of itself, but if we allow ourselves to take something that appears to be spoken literally in MN91 as being merely metaphorical, we effectively open pandora's box, and seemingly have to allow other things that are spoken literally, seemingly earnest, as potentially only being literary devices, fanciful eulogies or metaphor.
)
In the 21st century, Pandora's box is wide open. The question is, as Buddhists, do we have the heart and courage to look directly at what has emerged?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Fede »

:oops:

Ben, I feel suitably chastised....

But in light of further comments, my theory of the Buddha's previous existence as a Giraffe or Tapir may not be as far fetched as one might think.

I'm sure I have possibly manifested attributes akin to those of a mockworthy creature.
In fact, I'm sure I still do.
I trust you are all too polite to point out the obvious..... :rolleye:

This is actually a most educating thread.
Thanks all!

EDIT NOTE:

On the subject of this Pandora's Box... where did I read that Hope (left behind and trapped in the box) was not a positive sign, but rather a negative one, and that Hope, whilst appearing to be a positive attribute, actually raises far too many desires, only to see them dashed and destroyed....? Hope was, after all, in the Box, denoted as containing "All the Evil of Mankind".....
I wish I could find the post.
It made sense......
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Dhammanando »

retrofuturist wrote:To what extent are these to be understood literally or metaphorically?

To what extent did the Mahavihara Classical Theravada tradition understand them to be literal or metaphorical?
The Lakkhana Sutta, the locus classicus for this doctrine, describes each of the marks as being the outcome of a particular kind of wholesome conduct or quality of character developed by the Bodhisatta in former lives. The commentary to the sutta takes all of this quite literally.

It's noteworthy, however, that the commentator shows rather little interest in the marks themselves. The emphasis is chiefly upon the kusala kammas that generate them. A detailed exposition of these makes up about four fifths of the commentary. The remaining fifth is mainly about how the ripening of these kusala kammas aids the the Sammasambuddha as a teacher (or the Universal Monarch as a ruler). As for the marks themselves, most of these get no more than a laconic gloss of two or three words.

My impression is that most modern Theravada groups that take the classical Theravada pov seriously pay little attention to the thirty-two marks doctrine. An interesting exception is the UK-based Samatha Trust. The Trust's founder, Lance Cousins, is a big fan of the Digha Nikaya, including those Digha suttas that Buddhist modernists usually turn their noses up at: the Mahasamaya, Atanatiya, Lakkhana, Ambattha etc. and so much use is made of these in the Trust's exposition of the Dhamma.

As Robert Bluck describes:
  • The figure of the Buddha

    Perhaps more than other traditions, the narrative element of Samatha Trust practice focuses almost exclusively on the historical Buddha. Even in a beginners meditation group, which has little emphasis on Buddhist narrative, the life story of the Buddha will be briefly described, perhaps in the middle of the course. Advanced groups will give considerable emphasis to the person of the Buddha, with stories from the Pali texts being used to illustrate the teachings. Interviewees confirmed that most long-term members would get to know the Buddha’s life story well, and that this was the most important narrative (Stanier, 2003; Voiels, 2003). While such information would initially come from talks at group meetings, committed members will also read the texts for themselves, drawing on suttas and commentaries for stories about the Buddha which ‘help to inform attitudes and practice’ (Harvey, 2003).

    One example of how such narratives are used is the The Suttanta on the Marks, where a translation from the Digha Nikaya is presented as an opportunity to reflect on the Buddha’s qualities as ‘an important part of Buddhist meditative practice’, and one which can guard against ‘dogmatism or rigid views’ (McNab et al., 1996: 5). Similarly, in Thirty-Two Marks (1995: v), readers are invited to use the ‘thirty-two marks of a Great Man’ to observe and investigate the characteristics of their own body and mind. In a story told as if for a child, a sleepy prince leaves home on a spiritual quest for wakefulness and is gently introduced to teachings on morality, meditation and wisdom. The thirty-two marks are then linked more directly to this threefold path, to the four jhanas and finally to the Eightfold Path. Each of the Buddha’s marks is seen imaginatively as relating to spiritual progress, from the ‘well-planted feet’ which resemble ‘the first steps one takes towards the Dhamma’ to the ‘turban crown’ which symbolizes ‘insight into the real nature of things: anicca, dukkha, anatta’ (Thirty-Two Marks, 1995: 106–7).

    (Robert Bluck, British Buddhism: teachings, practice and development, p. 57)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by DNS »

Robert Bluck writes (above):

"Each of the Buddha’s marks is seen imaginatively as relating to spiritual progress, from the ‘well-planted feet’ which resemble ‘the first steps one takes towards the Dhamma’ to the ‘turban crown’ which symbolizes ‘insight into the real nature of things: anicca, dukkha, anatta’ (Thirty-Two Marks, 1995: 106–7)."

The use of 'imaginatively' and 'symbolizes' seems to imply a metaphorical, symbolic account of the 32 marks.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Individual »

TheDhamma wrote:Robert Bluck writes (above):

"Each of the Buddha’s marks is seen imaginatively as relating to spiritual progress, from the ‘well-planted feet’ which resemble ‘the first steps one takes towards the Dhamma’ to the ‘turban crown’ which symbolizes ‘insight into the real nature of things: anicca, dukkha, anatta’ (Thirty-Two Marks, 1995: 106–7)."

The use of 'imaginatively' and 'symbolizes' seems to imply a metaphorical, symbolic account of the 32 marks.
On this, it's worth pointing out that the Brahmajala Sutta says:
...tying the hair into a top-knot... Samana Gotama abstains from such embellishment and adornment. A worldling, bhikkhus, might praise the Tathagata in this manner.
And yet, of the Buddha's characteristics, they include:
53. His topknot is like a crown.

...

80. He has a topknot as if crowned with a flower garland.
So, did he have a top-knot or not? Based on the described appearance of the Buddha, most statues give him a top-knot. In one sutta (forget which, though), Upali the barber cut his hair, suggesting Gautama wasn't bald.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Fede »

Individual, you had a great, long, huge thread on another forum on this 'topknot' business.... you still asking.....?? :popcorn:
:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Fede wrote::oops:


On the subject of this Pandora's Box... where did I read that Hope (left behind and trapped in the box) was not a positive sign, but rather a negative one, and that Hope, whilst appearing to be a positive attribute, actually raises far too many desires, only to see them dashed and destroyed....? Hope was, after all, in the Box, denoted as containing "All the Evil of Mankind".....
I wish I could find the post.
It made sense......
That was me, a revelation I had in high school while reading Bullfinch's Mythology. That cynical bit of my rambling was on e-sangha under a thread about Japanese soldiers losing hope. One of my more darker gems, I'll admit. :tongue:

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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Jechbi »

Individual wrote:So, did he have a top-knot or not?
Are you sure it's not just a big snail?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Individual »

Fede wrote:Individual, you had a great, long, huge thread on another forum on this 'topknot' business.... you still asking.....?? :popcorn:
:namaste:
I'm not asking, because I don't think there is a sufficient answer. When I asked, I don't remember getting a straightforward answer. I remember hearing some people flat-out deny it was a topknot without substantiating their claim. I mention it here because it is relevant, demonstrating a case of a possibly metaphorical description of the Buddha's appearance.
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Re: 32 Marks of a Great Man

Post by Dhammanando »

Individual wrote:So, did he have a top-knot or not?
Taking into account the Suttas' teaching on the eight great assemblies, I would suppose that the Buddha exhibited a top-knot when visiting assemblies of people with top-knots, but not when visiting other kinds of assembly.

  • 'Ananda, there are these eight kinds of assembly. What are they? They are an assembly of khattiyas, an assembly of brahmins, an assembly of householders, an assembly of ascetics, an assembly of devas of the Realm of the Four Great Kings, an assembly of the Thirty-Three Gods, an assembly of maras, an assembly of Brahmas.

    'I remember well, Ananda, many hundreds of assemblies of Khattiyas that I have attended; and before I sat down with them, spoke to them or joined in their conversation, I adopted their appearance and speech, whatever it might be. And I instructed, inspired, fired and delighted them with a discourse on Dhamma. And as I spoke with them they did not know me and wondered: "Who is it that speaks like this? Is he a deva or is he a man?" And having thus instructed them, I vanished from there, and still they did not know: "He who has just vanished - was he a deva or was he a man?"

    'I remember well, Ananda, many hundreds of assemblies of brahmins ... many hundreds of assemblies of householders ... many hundreds of assemblies of ascetics ... many hundreds of assemblies of devas of the Realm of the Four Great Kings ... many hundreds of assemblies of the Thirty-Three Gods, many hundreds of assemblies of maras ...

    'I remember well, Ananda, many hundreds of assemblies of Brahmas that I have attended; and before I sat down with them, spoke to them or joined in their conversation, I adopted their appearance and speech, whatever it might be. And I instructed, inspired, fired and delighted them with a discourse on Dhamma. And as I spoke with them they did not know me and wondered: "Who is it that speaks like this? Is he a deva or is he a man?" And having thus instructed them, I vanished from there, and still they did not know: "He who has just vanished from here - was he a deva or was he a man?"
    (Parisa Sutta, AN. iv. 307-8; Mahaparinibbana Sutta, DN. ii. 109-110)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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32 signs

Post by lucky-2012 »

Can anyone direct me to the sutta(s) which list the 32 marks of a Buddha, if any?

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Re: 32 signs

Post by bodom »

Lakkhana Sutta
http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Lakkhana_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: 32 signs

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Interesting signs! This article explains a little more:


The 32 Signs of a Great Man (mahā purisa lakkhaṇa)
are auspicious marks that are supposed to be present on the bodies of all Buddhas.
Although only incidental to Buddhism, this idea is the theme of three discourses (D.II,142; M.II,133; Sn.103) and is mentioned briefly in several others. The idea of the Signs has its origins in Brahmanism and was incorporated into Buddhism at a later period for reasons that are not clear.
Some of the Signs, like the long tongue, the blue eyes, the golden complexion and the ensheathed penis, were probably connected with the ancient Indian concept of idealized physical beauty. Others are so strange, grotesque even, that it is difficult to know what to make of them.

When the seer Asita came to visit the new born Buddha-to-be, Siddhattha Gotama, he mentions that he sees the signs or marks of a great man and lists some of them. This confirms that this concept is a pre-Buddhist idea.

It is very clear from the Tipitaka that the Buddha's physical appearance was normal in every way. When King Ajātasattu went to meet him he was unable to distinguish him from the disciples surrounding him (D.I,50). If the Buddha had any of the 32 Signs the king would have recognized him immediately.
Pukkasāti sat talking to the Buddha for hours before realizing who he was (M.III,238). If the Buddha had any of the Signs the young man would have soon noticed it and known that he was someone unusual.
When Upaka encountered the Buddha walking along the road to Gaya the thing he noticed most about him was 'clear faculities and radiant complexion' (M.I,170). He did not mention seeing any of the 32 Signs.

In the Buddha's teachings, the external and the physical are always subordinate to the internal and the psychological (S.I,169). The Buddha was aware of the Brahmanical concept that a ‘great man' could be known by his physical characteristics and he rejected this notion. Someone once asked him: ‘They talk about a ‘great man,' a ‘great man.' But what is it that makes a great man?' The Buddha replied: ‘It is by freeing the mind that someone becomes a great man. Without freeing the mind one cannot be a great man' (S.V,157).

Complete list of the 32 Marks or signs of a Great Man
1. He has feet with a level sole (Pali: supati thapado). Note: "feet with level tread,/ so that he places his foot evenly on the ground,/ lifts it evenly,/ and touches the ground evenly with the entire sole." (Lakkhana Sutta)
2. He has the mark of a thousand-spoked wheel on the soles of his feet (Pali: he thapadatalesu cakkani jatani).
3. He has projecting heels (Pali: ayatapa ni).
4. He has long fingers and toes (Pali: digha nguli).
5. His hands and feet are soft-skinned (Pali: mudutalahathapado).
6. He has netlike lines on palms and soles (Pali: jalahathapado).
7. He has high raised ankles (Pali: ussa nkhapado).
8. He has taut calf muscles like an antelope (Pali: e nimigasadisaja ngho).
9. He can touch his knees with the palms of his hands without bending. (Pali: thitako va anonamanto).
10. His sexual organs are concealed in a sheath (Pali: kosohitavatguyho).
11. His skin is the color of gold (Pali: suva n nava no). "His body is more beautiful than all the gods." (Lakkhana sutta)
12. His skin is so fine that no dust can attach to it (Pali: sukhumacchavi).
13. His body hair are separate with one hair per pore (Pali: ekekalomo).
14. His body hair are blue-black, the color of collyrium, and curls clockwise in rings. (Pali: uddhagalomo).
15. He has an upright stance like that of brahma (Pali: brahmujugatto).
16. He has the seven convexities of the flesh (Pali: satusado). Note: "the seven convex surfaces,/ on both hands, both feet, both shoulders, and his trunk." (Lakkhana Sutta)
17. He has an immense torso, like that of a lion (Pali: sihapuba dhakayo).
18. The furrow between his shoulders is filled in (Pali: pitantara mso).
19. The distance from hand-to-hand and head-to-toe is equal (Pali: nigrodhaparima n dalo). Note: incidentally, these are also the ideal proportions according to Leonardo Da Vinci’s Vitruvian Man.
20. He has a round and smooth neck (Pali: samva d dakhando).
21. He has sensitive taste-buds (Pali: rasagasagi).
22. His jaw is like that of lion's (Pali: sihahanu).
23. He has a nice smile
24. His teeth are evenly spaced (Pali: samadanto).
25. His teeth are without gaps in-between (Pali: avira ladanto).
26. His teeth are quite white (Pali: sukadanto).
27. He has a large, long tongue (Pali: pahutajivho).
28. He has a voice like that of Brahma (Pali: brahmasaro hiravikabha ni).
29. He has very blue eyes (Pali: abhi nila netto). Note 1: "very (abhi) blue (nila) eyes (netto)" is the literal translation. Nila is the word used to describe a sapphire and the color of the sea, but also the color of a rain cloud. It also defines the color of the Hindu God Krishna. Note 2: "His lashes are like a cow's; his eyes are blue./ Those who know such things declare/ 'A child which such fine eyes/ will be one who's looked upon with joy./ If a layman, thus he'll be/ Pleasing to the sight of all./ If ascetic he becomes,/ Then loved as healer of folk's woes.'" (Lakkhana Sutta)
30. He has eyelashes like an ox (Pali: gopa mukho).
31. He has a white soft wisp of hair in the center of the brow (Pali: una loma bhamukantare jata). Note: this became the symbolic urna.
32. His head is like a royal turban (Pali: u nahisiso). Note that this denotes his cranial protrusion, visible on Buddhist iconography.
http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=3 ... _great_man" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: 32 signs

Post by Sokehi »

Excellent, clarifying post dear Chris with good reference to the suttas :)
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